Members of the clergy face a uniquely precarious challenge during times of peril. The church is so often where people who are confused, frustrated, in pain and in need of refuge turn for help and counsel. America currently faces a moment of history marked with racial tumult, so how will clergy members choose to wield the power of the pulpit?
Join Reverend Dr. TLC and her guest, Reverend Shannon White as they discuss the pressures of having a platform during times of uncertainty and the challenges of confronting the topic of race with congregations of various demographics.
Rev. Dr. TLC begins the show encouraging us to center ourselves and to breathe. Rev. Dr. TLC introduces her guest Reverend Shannon White. Shannon has been a minister for over 30 years. She has served in four congregations in NY and CT. Shannon has been a TV reporter for nine years receiving Emmy nominations along with other accolades. Currently Shannon is training with Hoffman institute to be a teacher. Rev. Dr. TLC asks Shannon how she grounds herself when trying to get through stressful days? Shannon talks about being introduced by the Hoffman institute to the ideology that you look at yourself as a quandinity. She adds there is your emotional self, intellectual self, body, and your truest form your spiritual self. Shannon takes the time to check in with each one of these pieces to ensure she stays grounded throughout the day. She also mentions that prayer and meditation helps as well. Shannon talks about tapping into those areas and how it helps ease the flow of conversation on race. She adds it’s beneficial to not be reactive.
After the break Rev. Dr. TLC and Shannon discuss how Shannon got involved in race related issues. Shannon talks about moving to Japan for a year after graduation to teach English. She shared her experience feeling like “the other''. She said she finally saw what it was like to be treated solely based on your race and how you look. Shannon talked about coming back to America and getting involved in wealthy whte churches. She would take people from safe environments and get them out of their comfort zone. Shannon would get them to volunteer with the homeless and other charity works. Shannon talks about traveling outside of America as a way of getting out of her own comfort zone. Before the break, Dr. Rev. TLC and Shannon discussed times shannons stories weren’t positively received from the congregation. Stating that her sermons at times were too political.
After the break, Rev. Dr. TLC and Shannon discuss the times Shannon’s sermons weren’t received well by some members of her church and the events leading after. Rev. Dr. TLC and Shannon discuss the common concerns within the church community when preaching sensitive topics like race. Shannon shared the effects and worries that occur when gratuitous donors decide to part ways due to “political sermons”. Shannon talks about relying on her faith during those times. She understands the fears churches experience when losing big donors but she also adds that can’t be the only concern. Before the break, Rev. Dr. TLC and Shannon begin to talk about how religion , specifically Christianity, perpetuates white supremacy.
Coming back from the break, Rev. Dr. TLC and Shannon continue the conversation on how the church keeps white supremacy alive. Shannon talks about the patterns of white sermons and how they are seen as happy and positive. She mentions that Christian theology focuses on individual sin and salvation. Rev. Dr. TLC notes that many POC clergy preach liberation theology. She talks about how black churches have to uplift their people. The segment ends with a blessing from Reverend Shannon White.
00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:56.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Welcome to dismantle racism, where our goal is to uncover dismantle and eradicate racism and really to create a world where racial equity is the norm.
00:02:56.520 --> 00:03:04.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc and today we are going to be taking a look at the role of clergy.
00:03:05.310 --> 00:03:27.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In this fight for social justice and racial equity, we know that the Church is often where people go when they are confused and frustrated or in pain in need of refuge, and so they turn to clergy, they turn to worship, they turn to their faith Community for just spiritual.
00:03:28.770 --> 00:03:35.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: comfort and so sometimes when they get to church they don't want to really deal with the social ills of the world, but yet.
00:03:36.270 --> 00:03:47.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Many of our faith practices and beliefs really tell us that we should be concerned about what is happening in the world, so today we're going to be talking.
00:03:47.670 --> 00:04:08.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: With my guest about what is the role of clergy and what has been some of her experiences with wielding her power in the pulpit to discuss racial and social justice, but, as always, I want us to take a moment to Center ourselves and to find our breath.
00:04:09.990 --> 00:04:30.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: By doing so, it connects us with life itself and with our higher level of consciousness and it prepares us for this conversation on race, racism and social and racial equity So if you would for a moment at like you just to take a deep breath in.
00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:34.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then, to release it.
00:04:36.420 --> 00:04:38.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and take another deep breath in.
00:04:39.930 --> 00:04:44.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and take a mental scan of where you are and feel.
00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:52.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The tension that might be in your body, and I invite you to say it out and let it go into release it.
00:04:54.870 --> 00:05:00.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Take another deep breath in being conscious of your thoughts in this moment.
00:05:01.470 --> 00:05:08.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How comfortable, or perhaps uncomfortable you are with this conversation.
00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:10.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then just let it go.
00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:21.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and breathe in a desire to be open to be fluid to be aware.
00:05:24.450 --> 00:05:26.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then breathe out any tension.
00:05:29.250 --> 00:05:32.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That holes preconceived notions.
00:05:34.980 --> 00:05:36.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in peace and harmony.
00:05:38.940 --> 00:05:48.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then just sigh out anything that would block you from hearing something new in this conversation today.
00:05:52.770 --> 00:05:53.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I feel Skype.
00:05:55.230 --> 00:06:03.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Today, I am going to be talking with a friend and a fellow clergy, the Reverend Shannon white.
00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:22.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And we are going to be discussing the pressures, the pressures of having a platform during a time of uncertainty and the challenges that are confronting us today and so i'd like to welcome my guest today Reverend Shannon white Shannon welcome to the show.
00:06:22.950 --> 00:06:25.710 Shannon White: I am delighted and honored to be here with you.
00:06:26.460 --> 00:06:31.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you i'm so delighted to have you i'm really excited so I want to tell people a little bit about you.
00:06:32.280 --> 00:06:33.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Reverend Shannon.
00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:47.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is a Presbyterian minister and she's been one for over 30 years and she served and for congregations in New York and Connecticut she's also been a TV reporter for about nine years.
00:06:48.150 --> 00:06:59.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And with several emmy nominations and other awards, and she is the author of the invisible conversations with your agent parents and how was school today.
00:07:00.810 --> 00:07:10.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Fine, which he co authored with our daughter payton and I think that her books gives us a little give us a little bit of insight.
00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:15.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: into Shannon It shows that she is able to have the difficult conversations.
00:07:16.260 --> 00:07:27.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That are often needed for us to navigate life, she is currently training with the Hoffman institute to be a teacher and the Hoffman institute offers a residential week long.
00:07:28.290 --> 00:07:39.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: transformational process and it's based in California so again i'm delighted to have you, we are going to jump right in with our.
00:07:40.260 --> 00:07:49.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Questions I always begin by asking my guests, to really talk to us and to share with us how you ground yourself.
00:07:50.070 --> 00:08:09.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just for doing work on racial and social justice, but getting through life itself Now I will be the first to acknowledge that often as a clergy person one who cares for the souls of others it's often hard to carve out that time.
00:08:10.050 --> 00:08:14.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to care for ourselves, but it is so critical that we do it so what's your practice.
00:08:16.410 --> 00:08:25.020 Shannon White: it's a great question and an important one to ask of clergy because i've read so many of so many who have burned out during this time of covert.
00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:40.020 Shannon White: So i've been introduced to a practice through the Hoffman Institute in which i'm training that talks about ourselves as a quadrant study of emotional self intellectual self.
00:08:40.590 --> 00:08:48.810 Shannon White: body and spiritual self meaning the spiritual self being the part of us that is most authentic and our true essence.
00:08:49.380 --> 00:09:03.000 Shannon White: Inside herself says nothing outside of ourselves it's who we are, in our essence so when you take time, when I take time in the morning to go through and check in with each of those pieces of myself.
00:09:03.450 --> 00:09:11.550 Shannon White: What am I emotions what am I actually feel like not what am I thinking about, but what am I feeling right now, where does that sit in my body.
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:28.470 Shannon White: What am I thinking and oftentimes there's a war between the emotional self and the intellectual self and then, what does my spiritual self have to say when I give voice to each of those pieces, I feel grounded and ready and there's nobody at war with inside.
00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:32.160 Shannon White: So, like beginning with that, as well as prayer and meditation.
00:09:33.030 --> 00:09:50.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I love that so so much and with the work that I do i'm often talking about tapping into what I call our sacred intelligence, which is that spiritual keys that guides us along the way, sounds like a fascinating program that you're involved in, and I know that.
00:09:51.210 --> 00:09:58.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I read in your bio as I just read that you're going to be doing some training in that area in those three practices sounds exciting.
00:09:59.580 --> 00:10:07.500 Shannon White: Indeed, and it's actually a two year training process and this this work, I would actually participated in the process back in 2008.
00:10:07.740 --> 00:10:16.920 Shannon White: It changed my life because I had been stuck in certain ways of being ever since childhood and could never eat as much as I wanted to, and as much work, as I had done.
00:10:17.550 --> 00:10:36.480 Shannon White: I never got to get into new behavior so that's what this does in a week long piece and it's it's extraordinary it's been going on for well over 40 years trains out of or they offer programs out of California and Connecticut Hoffman institute.org is where you'd go to look.
00:10:36.870 --> 00:10:49.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm so i'm really curious when you talk about tapping into those three areas if we talked about looking at conversations around racism, for instance.
00:10:50.850 --> 00:11:03.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How am I tapping into those three areas, help us with the ease and the flow, so I thought the conversation won't be uncomfortable and difficult, but how am I did help us to even get through the conversations.
00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:14.790 Shannon White: Right really good question so for me if i'm aware that i'm uncomfortable in a situation if I can go in and tap into what am I feeling right now.
00:11:15.210 --> 00:11:25.830 Shannon White: What is my intellectual what are my thoughts coming in, about those feelings or about what what judgments are coming in that's what the intellectual self will talk about like.
00:11:26.880 --> 00:11:35.880 Shannon White: measuring up or measuring not measuring up to other people, and then, where does it sit in my body, if I can get in touch with all of that, and then.
00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:52.980 Shannon White: connect with the spiritual self, which is what I really want to be and what I truly am deep underneath all that to them there's a chance for me to be present in the conversation or in the situation and not be acting out of the old patterns.
00:11:53.010 --> 00:11:54.150 Shannon White: That, I may have no.
00:11:54.510 --> 00:11:59.130 Shannon White: Fear or anxiety, or I can just be present to what's there.
00:11:59.550 --> 00:12:08.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, how does a person get to that point, because I can imagine the listeners listening and going well, if i'm in the middle of a conversation i'm not going to stop and do all of that so.
00:12:09.690 --> 00:12:14.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know how does one get to that point where they're able to do that, that quick check in.
00:12:15.300 --> 00:12:26.610 Shannon White: So it gives you a beat right so when you practice that it gives you a beat to not be reactive, so you really have to just kind of practice it enough to where you can go in and go oh.
00:12:26.910 --> 00:12:36.540 Shannon White: And, and so many of us, including myself, didn't grow up with words of feeling words right so to feel ashamed or to feel afraid.
00:12:37.650 --> 00:12:38.100 That.
00:12:39.300 --> 00:12:49.050 Shannon White: they're not accepted necessarily an adult life so to be able to put words under that and to say oh wow i'm feeling uncomfortable here and to be curious about that.
00:12:49.410 --> 00:13:02.070 Shannon White: It gives kind of a step if you're in the middle of a conversation, or if you're in middle of a situation that is causing you discomfort and in this conversation around racism, that is true for a lot of white people.
00:13:02.970 --> 00:13:11.370 Shannon White: Then, to understand where that's coming from and that your spiritual your true essence really wants to connect with other people.
00:13:11.640 --> 00:13:12.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But those.
00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:17.910 Shannon White: pieces that may keep us from wanting to make the next step in conversation relationship.
00:13:18.810 --> 00:13:25.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I love it I love it because, as I hear you talking about this, one of the things that I keep thinking about.
00:13:26.250 --> 00:13:35.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is the importance of US training to do this work we don't wake up one morning and say i'm going to check into all three of these areas.
00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:47.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Every second, I have, it is about the process of going through a program going through you know, a training learning more about ourselves.
00:13:47.520 --> 00:14:03.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So that we become more comfortable doing doing like a quick scan in the middle of the conversation and it's hard right, you know when i'm in conversations with people and they said something to like break my ego because I often refer to it as.
00:14:03.510 --> 00:14:05.280 Shannon White: ego that you have to get back.
00:14:05.670 --> 00:14:12.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, even when we're saying all that hurt my feelings were making it about something that's not you know.
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:21.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I have to do a quick scan of myself and it may not be the same three questions that you're asking, but it may be more of okay what's that about.
00:14:21.390 --> 00:14:40.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Those feelings that are coming up for you right now and then to say sit and listen and so I could see the tools that you are offering being critical to folks who want to engage in this conversation about raised in to help us evolve to.
00:14:42.030 --> 00:14:43.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of getting to the next step.
00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:55.800 Shannon White: it's so true and I didn't even know that there were those different pieces going on inside so to be able to kind of separate it out and know that the emotional self is oftentimes relating as a little child.
00:14:57.300 --> 00:15:01.140 Shannon White: know its place, and then the intellectual kind of coming in and going okay so.
00:15:01.530 --> 00:15:09.990 Shannon White: figuring out things so in kind of spreading it out a little bit and listening to the different aspects, at least for me in my own.
00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:21.180 Shannon White: process and practice it's been so helpful just to kind of give another way to be curious about myself and not to be so hard on myself.
00:15:21.300 --> 00:15:29.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm and and we're gonna take a quick break, but what I will say if we can recognize that that's what's happening inside of us.
00:15:29.970 --> 00:15:39.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That it also helps us to know that when we're engaging with someone else in a conversation that they may be responding from one of those three places.
00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:53.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and not from all of those places and maybe it would help us to understand them a little bit better, but we are going to need to take a break and we'll be right back with dismantle racism i'm your host Reverend Dr tlc we'll be right back.
00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:26.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Reverend Shannon before the break, we were having a great conversation about how you ground yourself daily but also how you ground yourself and it helps you to move through difficult conversations on race, but.
00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:36.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I want to know how you got interested and concerned and involved with really wanting to look at.
00:18:37.110 --> 00:18:53.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Racial equity in the first place, because it's outside of so many people's sphere of concern and we're going to get into that a little bit, particularly as it relates to some of the churches that you've worked in how did you get interested in this.
00:18:56.040 --> 00:18:57.660 Shannon White: It started a long time ago.
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.530 Shannon White: When I i'm kind of an old lady now.
00:19:04.110 --> 00:19:08.310 Shannon White: When I I after undergraduate school I.
00:19:10.110 --> 00:19:17.340 Shannon White: did a short stint in banking and then I went to Japan for a year to teach English as part of a church planting Program.
00:19:17.970 --> 00:19:32.310 Shannon White: And what I learned in that year, which was one of the most difficult, as well as the most rewarding years of my life was what it was like to be treated by others solely on the basis of what I looked like.
00:19:33.450 --> 00:19:39.060 Shannon White: It informed me in terms of what people of color here in this country.
00:19:39.780 --> 00:19:49.320 Shannon White: Which at that time, back in the 80s was majority white that's changing right and that's one of the reasons why people are white people are frantic in some ways.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:20:00.870 Shannon White: Because of the changing demographics, but anyway, I came back with that understanding and just I just want to blend in after about six months of people being.
00:20:01.890 --> 00:20:09.930 Shannon White: interested in my hair color and wanting to touch my hair or wanting to talk to me because I looked different or you know and spoke English as a native language and that kind of thing.
00:20:10.620 --> 00:20:20.610 Shannon White: amazing culture beautiful people and in product those kinds of things, so I came back and was started doing regular stints.
00:20:21.750 --> 00:20:34.020 Shannon White: You know i've been involved with white suburban wealthy churches my whole time and ministry I I went to seminary thinking that I would go work with oppressed peoples and it's.
00:20:40.020 --> 00:20:52.380 Shannon White: In interesting ways, but what has happened was you know, I was waiting this piece of justice banner, and the only the only churches that would respond to me were wealthy white churches, I was so interested about that.
00:20:52.950 --> 00:21:02.520 Shannon White: And that's continued to be the case, so what I would do and what I have done, and each of those congregations has been to.
00:21:03.090 --> 00:21:08.550 Shannon White: Take people from safe environments and get them out of their comfort zones.
00:21:09.330 --> 00:21:20.490 Shannon White: And whether it's working with the homeless in New York City on the streets overnight taking food and having hospitality and conversation with people just seeing them as another.
00:21:21.120 --> 00:21:34.650 Shannon White: face in fact I would tell people with this group called the midnight run as I would take folks from the congregation you're going to see the face of God and the homeless person or the person without housing that you meet.
00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:46.200 Shannon White: I also regularly took people to places in rural Central America and Nicaragua and in Dominican Republic i've spent a summer in Brazil to during seminary.
00:21:46.740 --> 00:22:04.860 Shannon White: To again get out of my comfort zone and to see how other people live, and that has been so important in having compassion and knowing that the way that I live, which is a privilege is not shared by everyone.
00:22:05.430 --> 00:22:07.440 Shannon White: And then be able to talk about that.
00:22:07.590 --> 00:22:09.630 Shannon White: In the communities in which i've served.
00:22:10.620 --> 00:22:23.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, so I want to get into in just a little bit what has been some of the responses of the people that you serve, but before we do there's another piece that you've told me in terms of.
00:22:23.820 --> 00:22:38.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, looking at other groups of people and how you've actually had to to Minister to affluent people, but then, when you were a journalist reporting a different side of the fence so.
00:22:38.310 --> 00:22:48.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: tell our audience a little bit about that and then how you actually balance that when you got ready to proclaim proclaim the Gospel on Sunday mornings.
00:22:48.780 --> 00:23:02.700 Shannon White: So yes, you and I talked about the fact that sometimes before Sunday morning I would do and new shift from two to 10 2pm to 10pm on Saturday, and sometimes those would take me into very URBAN.
00:23:03.510 --> 00:23:18.060 Shannon White: Rural settings with again I can remember one time that I went to awake of a gang Member, and you know walking back with the photographer and him saying oh you're about to get mail and like what sound like somebody is going to throw something down on us.
00:23:19.560 --> 00:23:27.300 Shannon White: And I was just kind of like let's go in and be friends with everybody and I learned very quickly, you have to be very streetwise as well.
00:23:27.810 --> 00:23:38.700 Shannon White: And then only to go on Sunday morning to show up in the pulpit in an area of Greenwich Connecticut with four acre zoning so a very different demographic.
00:23:39.150 --> 00:23:44.370 Shannon White: And still realizing that both of those realities are true for people.
00:23:45.090 --> 00:23:57.750 Shannon White: And then, how do you bring those together, how do you help people understand one another and have compassion for one another, when those two realities for so divergent so.
00:23:58.620 --> 00:24:11.280 Shannon White: till, we have to talk about it, you know, and I would bring in on Sunday mornings stories that I had done, I went to say say prison was with convicted murderers and one of the most powerful stories with of a man who ended up.
00:24:11.790 --> 00:24:25.620 Shannon White: writing to the innocence project and ended up being exonerated but he was in prison for 45 years and talking about that in a situation, and he was he was.
00:24:27.030 --> 00:24:47.130 Shannon White: convicted for killing a white woman who was 96 seems African American and and he ended up being innocent from DNA evidence so many years later, so talking about that and trying to get people to understand what what was going on for him during all of those years of being misunderstood.
00:24:47.670 --> 00:24:52.980 Shannon White: And so those kinds of things the other thing that i'll share real quickly is that you know I.
00:24:53.640 --> 00:25:01.800 Shannon White: The last church that I serve, we had a 15 year relationship that started before I got there with an African American Baptist church in the next town.
00:25:02.310 --> 00:25:13.200 Shannon White: and quickly, I became friends with the pastor he was very generous the spirit with me and he ended up doing my wedding two years ago, but at one point he.
00:25:14.010 --> 00:25:19.980 Shannon White: was probably like six or seven years ago, he let me know about a vigil That was the that was taking place around an.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:26.040 Shannon White: Anti racism and there was something that happened I forgot what that particular news cycle was.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:32.100 Shannon White: But it was going to be over bridgeport, which is a very different democratic from where I lived and so.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:46.170 Shannon White: He said it was going to be at one of his colleagues, churches, I went I took my high school age daughter with me, we were the only white people there and I was honored to have been invited up into the and then you know about how.
00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:58.710 Shannon White: To have been honored to have been invited to speak with all of these male African American pastors and my daughter sat by himself in the Congress in the congregation along with a very black.
00:25:59.550 --> 00:26:13.740 Shannon White: crowd they are, and I remember it was so gracious to them to ask me to speak, among them and I got up and did a confessional of of how white privilege and.
00:26:14.970 --> 00:26:21.960 Shannon White: And how I have been part of that and to have been received so graciously they are but.
00:26:22.560 --> 00:26:34.740 Shannon White: Again it's another way, and it was, it was important for me to have taken my daughter, to show her that this is not a scary place these are people, just like us, who have experienced tremendous pain.
00:26:35.070 --> 00:26:45.990 Shannon White: And and justice, and I think that, along with you know experiences in Nicaragua, where she and she i've taken her that they don't want to go into the peace corps and Africa.
00:26:46.470 --> 00:26:48.390 Shannon White: Know it's helped shape her.
00:26:48.600 --> 00:26:54.120 Shannon White: to know that she wants to be a part of making things different and changing things for people.
00:26:54.540 --> 00:27:11.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm I love your your life's journey in which you've talked about your own transformation and being involved I love also that there are opportunities, where you engage in these conversations with.
00:27:11.820 --> 00:27:22.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The congregants but talk to us a little bit about how those conversations have been received, because I know that they haven't all been rosy.
00:27:23.550 --> 00:27:39.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And, and I also know from the work that I do on dismantling racism, where i've had white clergy to say directly to me the people in my congregation do not want to hear about this, and the reason why they're coming to me is so that we can help.
00:27:40.230 --> 00:27:51.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know device sort of a plan to help them to began to preach and to teach and to talk about social justice so what's been some of your experiences with these conversations.
00:27:52.620 --> 00:27:56.760 Shannon White: I had ever since the beginning of mine in my first church when I got back from.
00:27:58.350 --> 00:27:59.400 Shannon White: An experience.
00:28:01.320 --> 00:28:06.540 Shannon White: In Central America, where I preached about it, and I was told by somebody who had power.
00:28:08.040 --> 00:28:09.930 Shannon White: That that was too political a sermon.
00:28:11.340 --> 00:28:24.420 Shannon White: And I dont preach politics, I don't name the leaders of the country, whoever they may be, but I do talk about them, as I believe, as a Christian clergy person how it relates to the gospel.
00:28:25.050 --> 00:28:35.790 Shannon White: And so i've had to kind of, say, this is the Gospel at different points i've had people say a prayer about refugees was too political and I said.
00:28:36.810 --> 00:28:38.370 Shannon White: You know Jesus was a refugee.
00:28:40.080 --> 00:28:40.800 Shannon White: What do you do.
00:28:42.270 --> 00:28:51.120 Shannon White: i've you know so again it's doing that centering practice right of looking at not reacting, but just kind of being curious about what's going on for them.
00:28:51.720 --> 00:29:00.150 Shannon White: And I haven't been good at that all the time, absolutely not i've had people tell me, I definitely during the black lives matter stuff they didn't like my sermon.
00:29:01.050 --> 00:29:09.000 Shannon White: They didn't want me to talk about that there was you know, there have been reasons why the communities i've served have stayed mostly white.
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:27.000 Shannon White: Because it works for them right and so coming in and bringing in some something to challenge our attitudes and the things that have been that have made the Church, the White church so consistent for decades and decades.
00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:31.200 Shannon White: To challenge that is um.
00:29:33.690 --> 00:29:34.590 Shannon White: Can cost me.
00:29:37.290 --> 00:29:38.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: More I want.
00:29:38.430 --> 00:29:40.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To hear a little bit more about.
00:29:41.970 --> 00:29:52.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That mute me when we return from our break and to also hear a little bit more just from your perspective, about the times, where you've chosen not to preach about it for the sake.
00:29:52.440 --> 00:30:05.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of your own sanity and for other reasons that we can go into after the break how you resolve that within yourself, because we are called to be.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:22.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: prophetic and to proclaim because we are in our faith Christian to proclaim the Gospel and I think for all of us who consider ourselves spiritual leaders we are called.
00:30:22.530 --> 00:30:37.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To talk about what's going on in the times and get out everything, but we do have to be able to talk about the issue, so when we come back i'd like to hear a little bit more about that that mutiny, and how you reconcile within yourself.
00:30:38.040 --> 00:30:49.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What you will proclaim from the pulpit this is dismantle racism i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc with my guest the Reverend Shannon white and we'll be right back.
00:33:26.100 --> 00:33:35.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This is dismantle racism i'm your host Reverend Dr tlc my guest today is the Reverend Shannon white before the break, we were talking about.
00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:53.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How do we bring this conversation of racial and social justice in to the faith community and what are some of the responses of the congregants particularly and white affluent areas and Shannon you mentioned the word.
00:33:55.260 --> 00:33:56.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mutiny.
00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:59.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So my find that to be a little extreme but.
00:34:00.390 --> 00:34:01.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Maybe it is.
00:34:02.820 --> 00:34:21.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: talk a little bit about you know we've heard some of the responses that people have said to you, but often emails don't end there and comments don't in there, it stirs up a little something in the Church, so what is what's been some of the other things that have occurred.
00:34:22.080 --> 00:34:26.100 Shannon White: Well i'm not talking about emails people directly talk to me, which is a good.
00:34:29.070 --> 00:34:30.630 Shannon White: conversation than just.
00:34:31.020 --> 00:34:32.460 Shannon White: A one sided email.
00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:40.350 Shannon White: And I will say I have loved every single congregation i've been of which i've been apart and i've loved, so this is.
00:34:40.680 --> 00:34:52.710 Shannon White: It you know the the big picture is what's important of keeping the relationship intact and if you're going to have any kind of piece of change, you can't come out and hit people over the head every single Sunday it just can't there's a.
00:34:53.190 --> 00:35:05.550 Shannon White: prophetic yes and the pastoral so, for instance, a couple of weeks ago I preached on a sermon was from suspicion to curiosity.
00:35:06.150 --> 00:35:12.180 Shannon White: So kind of going from looking at it from a different way of not just coming out and hammering something, but just kind of saying.
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:25.020 Shannon White: What I notice, when you approach someone who's different than we are from a suspicious manner and what what needs to go down deeper inside to be curious and it shifts the energy around so.
00:35:25.470 --> 00:35:36.270 Shannon White: So that's one piece, but they didn't have you know one kind of it was a leader at one point, you know when I said we're going to talk about race tonight at the board meeting and the person said.
00:35:37.080 --> 00:35:43.920 Shannon White: What do you want us to do, and you know, do you want us to go take food over there and I.
00:35:44.430 --> 00:35:55.260 Shannon White: said now it's not about me telling you what to do, what do you want to do what's coming up in you that wants and needs to connect and it really is about.
00:35:55.980 --> 00:36:05.130 Shannon White: Having relationship right it's not just a because otherwise it gets to be the haves and the have nots if i'm going to go and serve a Community that's struggling a little bit more.
00:36:05.310 --> 00:36:13.320 Shannon White: And I don't have a relationship with them it's me giving something to them, and that does not create a given take that's.
00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:26.520 Shannon White: that's optimal right, and particularly in this work where there needs to be conversation around the impact of racism and communities so it's keeping that one, so you know but.
00:36:29.250 --> 00:36:31.080 Shannon White: You know it's more painful to think about.
00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:42.930 Shannon White: Those things I mean you know as a pastor it matters to get wet wet takes place, and so you know there were there were some times like last Sunday, I preached on.
00:36:44.190 --> 00:36:52.680 Shannon White: Some 2030 because I felt like people needed to be refreshed and renewed and rebuilt, at a time when.
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:56.790 Shannon White: When code is here I mean you know so you've had all of those.
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:10.560 Shannon White: Situations with the death of George floyd that brought forth on a whole different level the killings of innocent black men unarmed black men and lot of cases.
00:37:11.640 --> 00:37:20.910 Shannon White: Where that along with code and then has cons communities of which i've been apart, who are used to being empowering control.
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:34.530 Shannon White: Out of power and control so you've got all those kinds of feelings too so to address those things as a pastoral leader, as well as to talk about the important things about what's going on racially in our country.
00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:37.320 Shannon White: It has to be mounted.
00:37:38.130 --> 00:37:48.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, it has to be balanced, but what I find listening to white clergy and from even my own experience and awake congregation that.
00:37:48.870 --> 00:37:54.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, again when people come to church and they've dealt with whatever they had to deal with out in the world.
00:37:54.690 --> 00:38:03.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: during the week they're coming to church to find some sort of solace and many people don't want to be confronted with taking a look at themselves but.
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:23.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Really that's what the Gospel is about that's really spiritual experiences about is taking a look at ourselves, but I know that there is something that we often have to deal with as clergy that gets in the way of what we preach sometimes, and that is the financial piece because.
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:33.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Most people say listen i'm taking my money and going somewhere else if you're going to preach this particularly around race and to um.
00:38:34.740 --> 00:38:35.580 Shannon White: I don't know.
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:39.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's another day you want to share any experiences.
00:38:39.330 --> 00:38:40.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Related to that that.
00:38:41.070 --> 00:38:41.550 People.
00:38:43.050 --> 00:38:48.240 Shannon White: The reason substantial in fact probably our biggest at one congregation.
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:57.510 Shannon White: biggest one of the biggest givers who basically said i'm taking my money elsewhere and i'm like okay blessings on your way.
00:38:58.050 --> 00:38:59.700 Shannon White: Because the thing is is.
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:13.140 Shannon White: I do believe in a God that will provide and the money will come from some other place to help keep that congregation going and thriving so it's um.
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:25.290 Shannon White: That i've seen way too many times God show up in my life to provide that I can be that voice of faith and help guide the congregation through those kinds of things.
00:39:25.770 --> 00:39:27.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I want to, if I can just.
00:39:27.450 --> 00:39:38.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: pause just for a second, because I think the particularly folks who are clergy and folks who are in a faith Community need to hear what you just said.
00:39:40.050 --> 00:39:52.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is having the faith that god's spirit source, whatever it is that people call your higher level of consciousness, will provide because.
00:39:52.950 --> 00:40:05.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What happens is when big donors say that i'm leaving the Church, the church goes in a panic and what you said, is what I heard you say, and you can add more to this is that.
00:40:05.700 --> 00:40:29.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you're grounded in your faith helps you lead a congregation through those difficult times, and I feel like it's important for clergy, who struggle with how much do I push how much do I proclaim the prophetic word and they worry about the finances What you said is powerful.
00:40:29.850 --> 00:40:35.190 Shannon White: Well, and to be quite honest, I needed to shore myself up and remind myself.
00:40:36.270 --> 00:40:37.740 Shannon White: At times, too, because it's painful.
00:40:38.190 --> 00:40:46.050 Shannon White: Did you think Oh, my goodness, you know this budget, and you know i've been in churches with you know that are mega churches, by any means, but there.
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:54.750 Shannon White: You know, several hundred members, and when you when you lose one or two or three that makes a dent right so.
00:40:55.230 --> 00:41:13.200 Shannon White: And then you know ultimately let's get real it's about you know, can they afford to pay me so you know or Do I need them to go look for something else so fortunately I will say that the congregations in which i've served have had other people who shared that vision.
00:41:13.680 --> 00:41:16.440 Shannon White: i've gotten will provide and the desire.
00:41:16.830 --> 00:41:29.280 Shannon White: To hear those messages and there weren't enough of the people who wanted to hear those messages that stayed and that will serve them well and then in the Kingdom of God right.
00:41:30.240 --> 00:41:32.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So what's interesting is when I hear.
00:41:32.220 --> 00:41:40.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You say it makes a dent it makes a dent and then they're still overflow so it's.
00:41:40.530 --> 00:41:41.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Making that debt.
00:41:41.580 --> 00:41:57.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is all relative because I know that i've been in places where if it gets below a certain amount and they're still there still abundance, but if it gets below a certain amount, people are worried, and so I think that it's important for us, even in talking about the other is.
00:41:57.510 --> 00:42:19.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A look at that even when we look at racial inequalities, there are, or in equities, I prefer to use that that term but, even when we look at those racial inequities, we can see the intersection ality of economic and equities as well, and the intersection ality of race and economic.
00:42:21.630 --> 00:42:28.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: injustices as well and that's something that we need to discuss in our churches even more often.
00:42:29.070 --> 00:42:41.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What I find, though, is that it's easier for folks to dole out the money like you said to do like when they say what can we do to dole out the money or to dole out other resources.
00:42:42.120 --> 00:43:04.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But not do the personal work that's needed, because ultimately it's about the personal work, and then we go out farther into the world and and, as I say, we have these shared relationships, where we began to say I am going to help the least of these i'm very curious about your.
00:43:06.930 --> 00:43:08.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: perspective of.
00:43:09.690 --> 00:43:17.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Even when we look at religion and racism within what we proclaim from a religious place.
00:43:18.180 --> 00:43:41.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There are two things that I think about one is a story that you and I talked about actually prior to the show as presbyterians we actually our denomination was split years ago and we have now the Presbyterian you USA, and we have presbyterians of America, it was split over slavery.
00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:44.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And not only that.
00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:51.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There is a story of a Presbyterian pastor in the south, leaving his pulpit.
00:43:52.740 --> 00:44:00.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to attend the luncheon and then coming back to church in order to continue his sermon.
00:44:01.170 --> 00:44:09.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so, not being able to see the imbalance of that and and and you know white to Robert P Jones and his book white too long.
00:44:09.450 --> 00:44:10.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: talks about.
00:44:10.110 --> 00:44:19.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: White supremacy undergirding Christianity, we are going to have to take a break in a minute, but i'd love to know your perspective around.
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How sometimes religion actually perpetuates.
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:43.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A system that white is supreme because I know when people think about white supremacy they think about the hoods and the lynching and etc and white supremacy isn't just that it's really about keeping white as the the superior.
00:44:44.160 --> 00:44:50.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of standards for which we should abide by and keeping white folks at the top.
00:44:51.060 --> 00:44:59.610 Shannon White: End and there's a reason why Martin Luther King jr said that the 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock hour on Sunday mornings, the most segregated hour of the week.
00:45:00.090 --> 00:45:18.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's right that's right so i'd love, when we come back from the break for you really to talk a little bit about racism and religion, if you would, so we will be right back with dismantle racism i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc will be back with Reverend Shannon way.
00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:52.290 uninformed about men are pools, and how it impacts on your life.
00:47:21.120 --> 00:47:35.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with dismantle racism my guest today is the Reverend Shannon white and before the break, we were talking about religion and racism and in the ways in which Christianity in particular.
00:47:37.470 --> 00:47:45.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: has really been used in a way to perpetuate racism so i'd love to hear your thoughts about that Reverend.
00:47:47.370 --> 00:48:02.520 Shannon White: So i'm also wait too long from by Robert P Jones and it is such a helpful account of the history of just even in the last 4050 years.
00:48:03.030 --> 00:48:12.480 Shannon White: 60 years of the movement and how how the church and i'm talking about all denominations, because the author also said that you know.
00:48:13.380 --> 00:48:30.330 Shannon White: That Christianity, we think that you know of progressives or people and their religious left or somehow better or people up in the north and the Northeast are are beyond us but that's not true, he said that that white supremacy is kept in place by Christian culture and.
00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:33.960 Shannon White: I just read a couple of quotes white.
00:48:34.560 --> 00:48:44.460 Shannon White: White supremacist culture is deflected any attempt to trace the ideology to its religious source that God ordained the separation of races and his chosen whites to civilize and dominate the earth.
00:48:44.850 --> 00:48:50.070 Shannon White: biblical an act as descendants of Cain and the Old Testament are punished by God, I mean.
00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:59.280 Shannon White: Whether you're an artist, which means that the Bible doesn't have any mistakes in it that that's perfectly every single word is by God, which.
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:19.500 Shannon White: that's a denomination I grew up in as a fundamentalist and in the South, well, actually, that was in the North East in New York, but that has seeped down and has kept congregations protecting their own you know, using theology, to say that God ordained it this way.
00:49:20.550 --> 00:49:22.320 Shannon White: And then there's a whole piece that.
00:49:23.310 --> 00:49:28.830 Shannon White: Reverend hudgens in the new civil rights era Mississippi said the Cross of Christ had nothing to do with the social.
00:49:29.070 --> 00:49:36.780 Shannon White: and political upheavals outside the walls of the church so keeping that idea that sermon should be happy and make you feel good.
00:49:37.140 --> 00:49:49.710 Shannon White: And not deal with the things going outside that's what i've been dealing with right that's what i've heard rather than that the Gospel informs the way that we look at everything that Jesus interacted with the.
00:49:50.190 --> 00:50:08.490 Shannon White: political culture of his day and called people to account and and oftentimes Christian theology and doctrine do not they focus so much on individual sin and salvation and and don't look at the entire structure.
00:50:09.600 --> 00:50:09.990 Shannon White: So.
00:50:10.080 --> 00:50:17.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, well, I think that that actually might be a difference, though between what happens in white churches versus what happens in black.
00:50:18.780 --> 00:50:31.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because I for many of us, we are preaching a liberation theology for people of color black people, in particular, we have to look through that Bible and find ourselves.
00:50:31.830 --> 00:50:40.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Even at the Old Testament that's why we can identify with the Israelites there is because we see it as a liberation theology.
00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:41.310 Shannon White: and
00:50:41.490 --> 00:50:49.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We have to look at those stories, for instance of Cain and Abel and go, you know or or the curse of ham.
00:50:49.770 --> 00:51:03.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, we have to look at those stories and say wait a minute, where, am I in that and that doesn't often happen in when I have been a pastor of a white church, or if i'm sitting in a way, church.
00:51:04.260 --> 00:51:15.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In churches that are mostly of color we deal with the issues of the day, there's no way I can go on a Sunday morning and not help congregants be able to get through.
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:36.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The oppression that we experience as a people that is steeped in a system of racism, but also to be able to say wait is this Bible for you the Bible that we're looking at Where are you in this Bible, and I have to say, sometimes even challenging people of color.
00:51:36.990 --> 00:51:37.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: about the stories.
00:51:37.980 --> 00:51:49.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In the Bible like you said is this is this is this actually what this says, you know there's a challenge for all of us, so we have talked to today about.
00:51:51.120 --> 00:51:53.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know a bit about how.
00:51:55.380 --> 00:52:03.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Racism and religion are intertwined and I wonder if there are other things that you'd like to add.
00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:18.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To that, because I feel like there's so many other questions I can ask you, in general, but I just want to get some of your final you know kind of thoughts about religion and racism or religion and its role of how we can dismantle racism.
00:52:20.040 --> 00:52:32.220 Shannon White: So I would say, and I say this very humbling because I have not done as much as I could do I mean we can always do more right so it's it's taking it each day at a time and doing.
00:52:32.850 --> 00:52:43.830 Shannon White: What you can each day to have the relationships with people who will like yours and my relationship, I trust that you will confront me if I say something that's off and.
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:59.490 Shannon White: I have a friend my best friend from high school, who we both know has always been that for me to and kind of you know, a mirror for me to mirror back something to do little things I remember, I did about groupon white fragility.
00:53:01.740 --> 00:53:06.690 Shannon White: Book white fidelity which was very powerful, for me, too, and I, I remember just.
00:53:07.050 --> 00:53:15.540 Shannon White: feeling discouraged, because there were only eight people that came and you know they were kind of people that were kind of on the periphery of the congregation some of them were were part but.
00:53:16.050 --> 00:53:23.610 Shannon White: They just so happened, you know, and I got discouraged with that and, but the school superintendent who was not a member of my congregation of the Community.
00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:39.810 Shannon White: Calling and just said hey can I come to this and I said absolutely come, so we have this book group for five six weeks, and he came every time and we talked and I had all my things of looking at liberation theology in the middle of it, too, and all that and.
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:42.330 Shannon White: A couple of years later.
00:53:44.340 --> 00:53:51.090 Shannon White: When I left that congregation he called and said, I just want you to know that book group change the town, because I.
00:53:53.640 --> 00:54:03.690 Shannon White: I ordered 150 copies of that book and then had the author come, and we have all the scripts and it's changed the way we think about curriculum, so I guess.
00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:14.460 Shannon White: In some of my parting words, I would just say you just never know what your efforts will do what one relationship for going out of your comfort zone and having a relationship with someone who's different than you are.
00:54:14.850 --> 00:54:27.690 Shannon White: Who experiences life differently than you or me how important that is and how one relationship can mushroom into a lot of different relationships start in a book club start.
00:54:28.980 --> 00:54:34.110 Shannon White: If nothing else, get it with other people who will be honest and reflect back.
00:54:34.950 --> 00:54:41.160 Shannon White: Because that's the way change is made it's not going to you know little chips away at something that's been so.
00:54:41.490 --> 00:54:46.380 Shannon White: entrenched in our culture and our society, since the beginning of time people have always.
00:54:46.770 --> 00:54:58.770 Shannon White: wondered where they were in relationship and that whole thing of the intellect where do I measure up right and white people have said, we measure higher so it's exposing the ego and nobody likes to have that.
00:55:00.540 --> 00:55:09.840 Shannon White: that's the cause of the Gospel right is to expose the ego so that we can live free because the reality is is Robert be john says.
00:55:10.350 --> 00:55:22.830 Shannon White: it's why people who are suffering, yes, yes, people of color also suffering in the system, but why people are we are left suffering because we are not living to our full potential we're not living as free human beings.
00:55:22.950 --> 00:55:36.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: um I love this beautifully stated, because we don't realize what we're missing out on when we're trying to hold so tight to what we think we already have.
00:55:37.050 --> 00:55:51.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so what i've heard you say in our conversation today is that you have to be willing to let go of something and 4040 particularly, I want to say this to white clergy, who are out there is that there is a responsibility.
00:55:52.260 --> 00:56:01.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because when we accept it, this call, there is a responsibility to preach into call out the things that are.
00:56:02.790 --> 00:56:13.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: socially unjust because, for those of us who proclaim that we are disciples of Christ that's what the radical revolutionary Jesus did and so.
00:56:13.890 --> 00:56:24.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's you know not to proselytize or anything like that, for whatever your faith belief is it is really about reaching out and so i've heard you say today, the importance of letting.
00:56:25.230 --> 00:56:42.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: letting go of some things in order to gain greater in addition to being able to preach what we're called to preach but also their sacrifices when people choose to come out and say i'm taking my money elsewhere, taking my toys and i'm going to go play elsewhere.
00:56:42.660 --> 00:56:44.190 Shannon White: and be located too.
00:56:45.750 --> 00:56:49.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah but also to know yourself.
00:56:49.590 --> 00:56:58.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to know yourself and then to question to question question question we should all still be questioning even our faith belief.
00:56:59.310 --> 00:57:10.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right and so Shannon I just want to thank you so much for being my guest today there's so much more that we could have talked about, and of course we'll talk more.
00:57:11.550 --> 00:57:22.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In the future, and offline, of course, but thank you for sharing with us today, I do want to just invite those of you who might be interested in law.
00:57:23.310 --> 00:57:32.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with Reverend Shannon you can connect with her through going to my website at sacred intelligence.com you can send me an email, and let me know that.
00:57:33.270 --> 00:57:42.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you'd like to connect with her and if you'd like to know more about how to engage in conversations around dismantling racism, please do look.
00:57:42.600 --> 00:57:48.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: on my website again it's sacred intelligence side calm and you'll find all of the courses that are offered.
00:57:48.690 --> 00:58:02.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Stay tuned for the conscious consultant hour with them libra was where he talks with his guests, as they help you to walk through life with the greatest of ease and joy will close today with a blessing from the Reverend Shannon white.
00:58:03.660 --> 00:58:23.190 Shannon White: may be blessed on this day may you be open to be with and interact with people who are different from yourself, maybe you embrace the discomfort that you feel and then you move through it and connect to form new bonds grace and peace.
00:58:24.540 --> 00:58:34.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's it everybody be well be blessed and until next time go out and do the good work that you're called to do bye for now.