Dismantle Racism with Rev. Dr. TLC

Thursday, July 8, 2021
Facebook Live Video from 2021/07/08 - Shopping While Black & Brown

Facebook Live Video from 2021/07/08 - Shopping While Black & Brown


2021/07/08 - Shopping While Black & Brown

[NEW EPISODE] Shopping While Black & Brown

Videos capturing everyday indignities and injury toward Black or Brown consumers have become media staples, showing the complexity, risk, and traumas many shoppers encounter in retail, restaurants, and other marketplaces. But each one quickly fades in the media spotlight.

Join Rev. Dr. TLC as she talks with Dr. Michelle Dunlap, author of Retail Racism: Shopping While Black and Brown in America. Dr. Dunlap shares with our audience the experience of Black and Brown people as they navigate this reality. 

Based on 19 in-depth interviews with consumers across the country, Dr. Dunlap’s goal is to empower us to interrupt, disrupt, and ameliorate the inappropriate and racialized handling of consumers in America today. Retail Racism is about not only shopping, but also humane living in America, including surviving and making sense of inequitable experiences, what to do about them, and the larger issues and contexts that surround the marketplace for Black and Brown people.

Tune in for this important conversation at or watch the Facebook Livestream by Clicking Here.

Show Notes

Segment 1

The first segment opens with Rev Dr Terrlyn reintroducing the show and introducing today's guest. On this week's show we welcome Dr. Michelle Dunlap, author of Retail Racism: Shopping While Black and Brown in America. Dr. Dunlap shares with our audience the experience of black and brown people as they navigate this reality. Today Dr. Dunlap will share what she has found in her research with 19 in-depth interviews with consumers across the country. Dr. Dunlap says that her goal is to empower, interrupt, disrupt, and ameliorate the inappropriate and racialized handling of consumers in America today. Dr. Dunlap says that a struggle of hers is encouraging people to talk about race in a positive, productive way despite racism being one of the most dirty, demoralizing experiences black and brown have. Rev Dr Terrlyn turns the conversation to staying grounded in this work of dismantling racism. Dr. Dunlap says that patience and pacing yourself has helped her work through the frustration of this work.

Segment 2

The second segment starts with the show coming back from break. This leads the conversation to Dr. Dunlap explaining the deeper meaning behind her statement “retail racism is not only about shopping”. Dr. Dunlap explains that it's also about humane living in America, including surviving and making sense of inequitable experiences, what to do about them, and the larger issues and contexts that surround the marketplace for black and brown people. Dr. Dunlap then gives an anecdote about how her initial interest in consumer behavior led her to understanding the real plight of black and brown people in America's marketplace and she shifted her focus to dismantle racism through her love of consumer behavior.

Segment 3

The third segment opens with Rev Dr Terrlyn continuing the anecdote Dr. Dunlap was sharing before the break. Dr. Dunlap was discussing the level of authenticity that was very important to her when writing her book. She explained that publishers were trying to change the narrative of her stories and interviews and that keeping them fully intact was a top priority for her when writing her book Retail Racism. Dr. Dunlap then brings up general themes she discovered when completing her book. She explains that the feeling of being watched is a common theme amongst the people she interviewed. Dr. Dunlap says that the most common theme is trauma. The people she interviewed expressed a feeling of lasting trauma and anxiety from their experiences.

Segment 4

The final segment starts with the show coming back from break. Rev Dr Terrlyn then asks Dr. Dunlap to share a story from her book. Dr. Dunlap then shares a story from one of the people she interviewed for her book Retail Racism. The story describes a time where this person was in a discount department store being followed by another customer in the store quite aggressively.


00:00:32.190 --> 00:00:48.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hello Hello hello, and welcome to dismantle racism, with the Reverend Dr T lc and I am your host Reverend Dr tlc and today we are going to be talking about shopping while black and Brown.

00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:53.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But, as always, I like to start the show out by having us just to breathe.

00:00:54.000 --> 00:01:06.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because we know that when we talk about race and racism, it often creates tension and we don't want it to be so for folks we want to be able to enter into this conversation being able to receive.

00:01:07.020 --> 00:01:23.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: All that there is to be heard on this show today and to be experienced so I invite you just for the moment to take a deep breath and and breathe in awareness and breathe out and consciousness.

00:01:24.810 --> 00:01:31.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in acceptance and breathe out bias and racial prejudice sees.

00:01:32.460 --> 00:01:38.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in curiosity and breathe out fear of the other.

00:01:40.590 --> 00:01:44.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Free then light and love for all.

00:01:45.600 --> 00:01:51.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and breathe out anything that would keep you from the human connection.

00:01:55.440 --> 00:02:03.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: let's get started with today I am so excited to have today's guest on Dr Michelle dunlap.

00:02:04.290 --> 00:02:14.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Who is here to talk to us today really about shopping while black and Brown, as you know that there are numerous numerous videos that.

00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:25.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: capture black and brown folks being treated in a way that's less than humane when all they're simply trying to do is shop, we know that.

00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:37.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: black and brown folks are often followed around and a store, they are accused of stealing even when they are walking with their own purchase in a store.

00:02:37.890 --> 00:02:53.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There are multiple incidents of racism that occur when black and brown folks are shopping so today's guest Dr Michelle dunlap is going to be sharing with us her experience and.

00:02:54.150 --> 00:02:59.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Her interviews that she's done with 19 different individuals, I believe.

00:03:00.450 --> 00:03:15.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She has a book entitled retail racism shopping while black and brown in America and I can't wait to hear about Dr done labs experience during the interviews and telling us what she's found.

00:03:15.750 --> 00:03:30.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But just to tell you a little bit about Dr dunlap she is a professor at Connecticut college in the human development department and she's been a professor, since 1994 she is.

00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:43.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: author or co editor of more than 40 journals articles book chapters essays and all of these topics still with cultural competency and family.

00:03:44.220 --> 00:03:56.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And Community engagement service learning multicultural issues and diversity and racial identity development, now we could be here all day talking with her about any.

00:03:56.700 --> 00:04:18.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: One of these issues that she is an expert and she is a brilliant brilliant woman and she is an extraordinary human always giving back to society, so I am delighted delighted today to have as my guest Dr Michelle dunlap Dr dunlap welcome welcome welcome to the show.

00:04:21.270 --> 00:04:23.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I think you have to unmute yourself.

00:04:24.330 --> 00:04:28.410 Michelle Dunlap: Thank you hi everyone so happy to be here it's such an honor.

00:04:29.580 --> 00:04:30.630 Michelle Dunlap: Dr terrell and.

00:04:31.050 --> 00:04:32.340 Michelle Dunlap: that's third party hurry.

00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:34.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, Dr dunlap.

00:04:35.820 --> 00:04:54.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What i'd love to do I know that when we talk about dismantling racism, the work of dismantling racism is often not easy, even though we want to engage in this conversation, and we want to see talking about race as a positive thing, but racism itself is not.

00:04:55.830 --> 00:05:11.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Sometimes we grow weary and you've been doing this work since 1994 so talk to me a little bit about what helps to ground you in this work of dismantling racism and helping other folks understand multicultural issues.

00:05:13.410 --> 00:05:18.150 Michelle Dunlap: Well, first of all, I would say i've been doing this work since before 1994.

00:05:19.350 --> 00:05:27.690 Michelle Dunlap: So, just to clarify i'm even though my career at Connecticut college started in 94 when you're born.

00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:42.210 Michelle Dunlap: By pop person in this society your work begins, even while you're still in the womb, the burden the costs of that the inequities can impact you even while you're in the womb.

00:05:42.690 --> 00:05:50.910 Michelle Dunlap: And then, of course, during college and working on master's degree and then for my PhD my dissertation the focus was on.

00:05:51.930 --> 00:05:57.480 Michelle Dunlap: On these issues of race and racism, as well, so um.

00:05:58.350 --> 00:06:09.900 Michelle Dunlap: How do you stay grounded when you're doing this work and that's not an easy thing to do, as you know, because you also have dedicated your life to this work, and sometimes I look at to Dr.

00:06:10.290 --> 00:06:25.440 Michelle Dunlap: Curry avery because i've known you for many years, and I wonder how does she keep up the energy to do what she does when you do this kind of work, you have to be sure that you pace it out, as you know.

00:06:25.980 --> 00:06:47.610 Michelle Dunlap: You have to pace it out in a way that does not SAP all of your energy that does not make you sick physically ill or emotionally ill, so you have to pace it out, and you have to make sure that you engage in self care, because when you're dealing with issues of inequity.

00:06:48.750 --> 00:07:03.120 Michelle Dunlap: oftentimes you're dealing with issues that have taken hundreds of years, maybe thousands of years to be put into place and they're not going to be dismantled overnight.

00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:03.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm.

00:07:04.050 --> 00:07:04.890 Michelle Dunlap: And so.

00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:11.100 Michelle Dunlap: It is work that can be frustrating is work that can be disheartening.

00:07:11.790 --> 00:07:26.160 Michelle Dunlap: it's work where you, as the person who's trying to do the facilitating of it, you can become an easy target of the atheist in the upset moment that others might feel about it.

00:07:26.730 --> 00:07:39.810 Michelle Dunlap: And so, for that reason self care is extremely important, so for me that will include my spiritual life my sister circles.

00:07:40.830 --> 00:07:43.620 Michelle Dunlap: which I take very seriously.

00:07:44.850 --> 00:07:55.020 Michelle Dunlap: That fellow shipping with those who are who, I am very close to family relationships um my children.

00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:10.380 Michelle Dunlap: um my my community, thank goodness, I work with colleagues who I really love and appreciate, who we really respect one another um so my my work community.

00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:16.290 Michelle Dunlap: Being able to bounce things off of some of my colleagues and being able to get.

00:08:16.710 --> 00:08:35.100 Michelle Dunlap: Support from them, at times, and to be able to give that support as well, so there's a lot of other things I could say but it's not any one thing um but spirituality would be the biggest thing being being able to trust in for me it's bad.

00:08:36.390 --> 00:08:58.620 Michelle Dunlap: But not not feeling like all of this is all of this work that i'm doing i'm doing the work no God is empowering me and helping me to do this work and and inspiring me to do this work and also telling me how in when I need to take care of myself.

00:08:58.830 --> 00:09:12.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm just so beautiful is so beautiful that you know it seems to be a running theme with with those of us who do this work, first and foremost, is to have something bigger than ourselves that really helped to ground us.

00:09:12.450 --> 00:09:18.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In this work and then also just reiterating what you're saying, because I think it's so important for our listening audience to know.

00:09:19.470 --> 00:09:38.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That self care is critical in this work and really being able to know when to say the word know because we can't do everything that we're called to do right, and so, when I hear you talk about the self care, it is really being able to discern.

00:09:39.630 --> 00:09:56.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Which battles, so to speak, that we will fight, because the thing that I find and i'm sure you find this as well because you're so Community oriented is that people will pull from you from all different directions just wanting a piece of your time because they know that you do this work.

00:09:57.780 --> 00:09:58.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and

00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:00.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh go ahead, speak to that.

00:10:00.990 --> 00:10:05.610 Michelle Dunlap: No, no you're you're absolutely right and it happens to.

00:10:06.630 --> 00:10:07.380 Michelle Dunlap: um.

00:10:08.850 --> 00:10:16.470 Michelle Dunlap: Any person who's who's equipped in some way to do this work, but especially for bypass people of color.

00:10:16.950 --> 00:10:26.100 Michelle Dunlap: and especially African American indigenous people who are equipped to do this work you're right we get pulled in every different direction.

00:10:26.730 --> 00:10:37.560 Michelle Dunlap: And i'm going to save this and I hope this doesn't offend anyone, I personally don't mind being pulled in every direction from entities.

00:10:38.160 --> 00:10:52.560 Michelle Dunlap: Organizations people who have no resources but it bothers me when organizations who have resources, want to pull at people who do this work and expect us to do it for free.

00:10:53.190 --> 00:10:55.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh uncritical.

00:10:55.530 --> 00:10:57.300 Michelle Dunlap: expect us to.

00:10:58.350 --> 00:11:09.360 Michelle Dunlap: You know the extra work that it takes and like I said us becoming a target of the upset moment oftentimes and the energy and the drain.

00:11:09.780 --> 00:11:21.030 Michelle Dunlap: To our energy and some people who have even been offended because we might not want to be at everybody's beck and call is if we're supposed to solve.

00:11:21.420 --> 00:11:40.200 Michelle Dunlap: All of the problems that got created over a these problems that that God created or or were created over a period of hundreds and thousands of years we're supposed to somehow come in there and fix it and fix it for free we're supposed to sacrifice ourselves.

00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:50.370 Michelle Dunlap: And so I have had situations where i've experienced anger from people who think that i'm supposed to spend every waking moment.

00:11:50.880 --> 00:12:07.590 Michelle Dunlap: i'm trying to do this work and do it for free, and I want to have quality time with my children and I want to have you, you know time to take care of myself, I want to have time to really be a good educator to my students.

00:12:07.860 --> 00:12:08.460 Michelle Dunlap: And so.

00:12:08.490 --> 00:12:17.640 Michelle Dunlap: forth and I I didn't have the language for explaining that early on, I just felt the anger and then I felt.

00:12:18.270 --> 00:12:25.800 Michelle Dunlap: kind of upset with myself like Oh, maybe I should have done this, or maybe I should have done that, but when you.

00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:42.570 Michelle Dunlap: engage with other people who are doing this work like yourself, you begin to find the language and you began to find ways of saying um what are you going to sacrifice for this work to get done.

00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:46.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right and we're going to we're going to need to take a really quick.

00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:50.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: break in just a minute, but you are saying, some really critical.

00:12:50.790 --> 00:13:00.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Things because one of the things that you're really touching upon his folks with resources, since you make a distinction between those with resources and those without.

00:13:00.990 --> 00:13:14.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: me to value the work that we do, because there is an emotional cost to black indigenous people of color when we do this work and it's very different.

00:13:15.180 --> 00:13:22.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Sometimes when we're are with with other by pot people, and we can share in the work that we're doing.

00:13:23.340 --> 00:13:35.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: At the same time that we're doing the work we're also being upheld emotionally by those other people of color but sometimes when we're in different experiences, it is an emotional.

00:13:36.510 --> 00:13:49.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It takes an emotional toll on us to do this work and to not be valued for doing it that's an additional toll that it takes on us we're going to be right back, though with Dr Michelle dunlap.

00:13:49.920 --> 00:14:02.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And we're going to be discussing retail racism in our next section I love love love to hear about your work that you're doing we'll be right back with dismantle racism with Reverend Dr tlc.

00:16:18.900 --> 00:16:32.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with dismantle racism i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc today's guest is Dr Michelle dunlap Dr don left before the break, you made a statement about having done this work.

00:16:34.110 --> 00:16:47.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Since the womb basically that that we are faced with really racism before we ever enter this this earthly round.

00:16:47.850 --> 00:16:52.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'd love for you just to say a little bit more about that I know what you're speaking to but.

00:16:53.280 --> 00:17:07.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It struck me when you said that some of our listeners might say, well, what do you mean we're all just born as babies, so if you could just give us a 30 seconds synopsis of what you mean and then we'll go into really talking about your book.

00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:20.550 Michelle Dunlap: Okay, so systemic racism and and and in equities that have been carried down from generation to generation that have kept.

00:17:21.030 --> 00:17:37.230 Michelle Dunlap: The rich rich the poor poor that have kept disproportionate numbers of of people of color especially African Americans and indigenous people here in the United States that have kept us disproportionately in poverty.

00:17:38.580 --> 00:17:52.890 Michelle Dunlap: have kept us from being able to own homes to live in healthy environments to be able to have adequate health care that have kept us from being able to buy the healthiest food in.

00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:12.870 Michelle Dunlap: From stores that are accessible to us that have kept us from having transportation and so forth, I could go on and on those things and also impact the developing fetus in the womb, also the daily stresses of racism, the.

00:18:14.010 --> 00:18:34.530 Michelle Dunlap: emitting of cortisol into our bloodstream all of that impacts not only the carrier of the fetus but also the fetus itself, and so on and so many other things I mean we're talking about a course that go on for a whole year.

00:18:34.890 --> 00:18:37.770 Michelle Dunlap: just talking about all of those aspects.

00:18:38.190 --> 00:18:42.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, and actually as a professor, that is, that is what you do you really.

00:18:42.030 --> 00:18:43.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: break down.

00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:43.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To do.

00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:47.190 Michelle Dunlap: What I do best.

00:18:47.550 --> 00:18:57.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And and and really I just want to encourage me about I mean it's phenomenal the work that you do and the writings that you're done do that you've done.

00:18:57.570 --> 00:19:09.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're going to talk about retail racism, but Dr dunlap has a number of articles out there, that I would encourage you to just pull up into read because she really will.

00:19:09.810 --> 00:19:26.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She gets in depth with talking about racism and multicultural experiences and just the developmental process itself and so it's so important to be informed about these things racism isn't just a visible things that we see.

00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:39.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, when we see these overt acts they're also these things that happened to us daily that we're not even conscious of, but I want to talk, because I know our time will go by really quickly here.

00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:52.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, given your expertise in the area of multiculturalism and racism, what led you to focus on retail races okay.

00:19:53.520 --> 00:20:00.540 Michelle Dunlap: So, first of all i'll say that when I went to graduate school, I was very much interested in.

00:20:01.650 --> 00:20:11.820 Michelle Dunlap: In consumer behavior and consumer issues when I entered the social psychology program at the University of Florida, one of the attractions to it.

00:20:12.300 --> 00:20:29.340 Michelle Dunlap: was the fact that you could specialize in consumer behavior I was very interested in consumer behavior, but when I began to realize that at that time i'm in the late 80s early 90s.

00:20:30.510 --> 00:20:39.990 Michelle Dunlap: The study of consumer behavior at least the way I began to perceive it was that it was about finding ways to get people to spend their money.

00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:56.520 Michelle Dunlap: And for me that felt like finding ways to exploit black and brown people, so I began to lose some of my passion for consumer behavior because.

00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:09.990 Michelle Dunlap: I began to think of of of marketing and consumer behavior and nothing to do with the program that I was the end just, that is what capitalism is all about.

00:21:10.290 --> 00:21:12.510 Michelle Dunlap: it's about getting people to spend money.

00:21:12.900 --> 00:21:16.590 Michelle Dunlap: And oftentimes getting people to spend money that they don't have.

00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:38.100 Michelle Dunlap: So I kind of I did get a master's degree in social psychology, with an emphasis in consumer behavior my master's thesis was on consumer behavior but then I started shifting after my master's degree more to into group relations and prejudice and racism, specifically.

00:21:39.360 --> 00:21:54.780 Michelle Dunlap: So um so really this work is not really an academic work growing out of an academic passion or interest, this is truly a passion of the heart.

00:21:55.560 --> 00:22:09.930 Michelle Dunlap: And the way that it began what made me turn my attention back to this area was an incident that happened when I was with a young loved one a family member.

00:22:10.560 --> 00:22:34.860 Michelle Dunlap: um we were at the mall about 25 years ago long time ago, but an incident happened at the mall um where I saw a child being treated like a grown person, a child who had made a mistake and done something that they should not have done an eight year old child.

00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:48.720 Michelle Dunlap: who had taken something and to see the response of the mall the integer the security next thing you know the police.

00:22:48.930 --> 00:23:05.760 Michelle Dunlap: This state troopers all of these people were involved in order to address this child in this $1 pack or $2 pack of of of of the item that they had taken.

00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:19.950 Michelle Dunlap: While they appear, it was right there nearby um so or or maybe not their parent, but their caregiver and so um that really stuck with me to see.

00:23:21.060 --> 00:23:27.090 Michelle Dunlap: To see how society would treat an innocent child.

00:23:28.290 --> 00:23:30.150 Michelle Dunlap: See the.

00:23:31.470 --> 00:23:35.130 Michelle Dunlap: Fear in that child how that child.

00:23:36.270 --> 00:23:47.100 Michelle Dunlap: They their their spirit their persona seem to move out of their body they seem not to even be present, they seem so traumatized.

00:23:47.730 --> 00:24:12.330 Michelle Dunlap: i'm the caregivers reaction um it was just astounding to see this child being processed into the criminal justice system at such a young age, and it was a situation that I could never really let go a and or yes, of which I could never let go how am I going to speak to.

00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:20.850 Michelle Dunlap: Speak the king's English term icon to speak like a speaker at home so anyway um.

00:24:22.110 --> 00:24:24.570 Michelle Dunlap: It it bothered me.

00:24:24.750 --> 00:24:43.500 Michelle Dunlap: And it stuck with me and I began to develop more and more of an interest in what actually happens to black and brown people when we go out and do something that system that society tends to think of as a leisurely activity.

00:24:44.790 --> 00:25:02.310 Michelle Dunlap: You know shopping going to the mall you think of music in the background and browsing and looking at products and and going to the food court and walking around, and you know.

00:25:03.570 --> 00:25:14.580 Michelle Dunlap: Maybe young people flirting with one another, maybe older people flirting with one another, whatever you're thinking of you know, these kinds of like uplifting things.

00:25:15.060 --> 00:25:20.400 Michelle Dunlap: And I began to think about for black and brown people after having.

00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:39.930 Michelle Dunlap: i'm engaged with that experience that I told you about I began to think about how much more complicated is something as simple as going to the store How much are going to the mall how much more complicated, might it be for black and brown people.

00:25:40.020 --> 00:25:53.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So tell us a little bit then about what were some of your findings just some of the when you when you interview these families are these individuals, give us a couple of the the major findings.

00:25:53.670 --> 00:25:57.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah because we also don't want you to give away everything we want.

00:25:57.390 --> 00:25:59.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To make sure that people pick up a copy.

00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:06.030 Michelle Dunlap: i'm not going to give away everything, and you know, initially, I was going to approach this as a research project.

00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:18.690 Michelle Dunlap: um once I had all of the stories, I was going to analyze them and coach them and do what I had been doing for decades and academia.

00:26:19.290 --> 00:26:29.400 Michelle Dunlap: What percent experienced this what percent experienced that I was going to break them down into pieces, I was going to write write a book that's um.

00:26:30.300 --> 00:26:37.410 Michelle Dunlap: that's chopped up into topics and then give you excerpts of what the different people said.

00:26:37.950 --> 00:26:52.620 Michelle Dunlap: But the more I began to listen to people and, as the more I began to interview people, the more I began to feel like I don't want to treat this as a research project I don't want to chop these stories up.

00:26:53.520 --> 00:27:05.730 Michelle Dunlap: I want people to hear the stories just the way that they were told to me, and when I began shopping around for publishers that became a point of tension.

00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:12.720 Michelle Dunlap: Okay, there were several publishers who offered me contracts, if I would chop these stories up.

00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:24.330 Michelle Dunlap: And I turned them down because my heart my spirit said, do not do not touch the stories do not chop the stories up.

00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:36.900 Michelle Dunlap: So I continue to look until I began to find publishers who were who thought the way that I did or were willing to think the way that I did in terms of keeping these stories intact.

00:27:37.230 --> 00:27:44.730 Michelle Dunlap: And us finding a way to tell these stories without having to treat them as as a research project.

00:27:45.180 --> 00:28:03.900 Michelle Dunlap: There were a few major things that emerged, though, that I can tell you, after you after you have so many interviews and you read the interviews over and over again, there are certain things that are very clear but there's lots and lots and lots of recurring issues that emerge but.

00:28:04.290 --> 00:28:06.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So what i'm going to ask you to do, though, because we do have to take a.

00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:24.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Quick break so we're going to take a break and we're going to come back and we're going to talk to Dr dunlap and she'll tell us a bit about her findings from retail racism, this is Dr tlc and we are discussing dismantle racism, of course, we'll be right back.

00:30:55.080 --> 00:31:09.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with dismantle racism i'm your host Dr tlc and I have my guest today is Dr Michelle dunlap before the break, we were talking about Dr don laughs book retail racism and.

00:31:09.840 --> 00:31:27.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Dr dunlap if you could just tell us again a little bit more about some of the findings that you discovered from the folks that you interviewed I know that you have quite a number of stories that you could talk about, but what are one or two of the general themes that came up.

00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And unmute yourself, please you.

00:31:32.610 --> 00:31:36.630 Michelle Dunlap: Thank you, the things that I found, and this is how I have the book.

00:31:37.830 --> 00:31:42.780 Michelle Dunlap: sorted or divided the first theme is the theme of monitoring.

00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:56.310 Michelle Dunlap: Constantly feeling like you're being watched and how that impacts us The second thing would be in equities that's like you're standing in line and the first.

00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:05.700 Michelle Dunlap: The person in front of you, they get a refund, with no ID no receipt But then when you come up to the line and it's your turn.

00:32:06.630 --> 00:32:16.410 Michelle Dunlap: You have to produce you know all kinds of ID you have to have a receipt you have to go through all of this to get your refund, but the person who just was in front of me.

00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:25.590 Michelle Dunlap: You know they didn't have anything and you just gave him cash money, and then the third issue would be outright traumas traumatic.

00:32:25.980 --> 00:32:36.570 Michelle Dunlap: Events like the one that I described to you that was really the passion for me doing this book that created this Labor of love.

00:32:37.560 --> 00:32:51.930 Michelle Dunlap: where something is so traumatizing for you as an observer, or for the person who's actually experiencing it that it takes you years to get over it, if you ever do get over it.

00:32:52.500 --> 00:33:03.510 Michelle Dunlap: So those are the three major things there's other things that come up like you go up to the cash register and someone asks you will you where's your abt card.

00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:07.920 Michelle Dunlap: And you're like what happened to debit credit or cash.

00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:10.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Can you tell people what abt me.

00:33:10.770 --> 00:33:12.480 Michelle Dunlap: Electronic benefits.

00:33:12.750 --> 00:33:29.070 Michelle Dunlap: Transfer card, which would be a social services type support card which nothing wrong with that card, but why do you assume that every person of color that that's, the only way that you're paying.

00:33:29.310 --> 00:33:39.930 Michelle Dunlap: that's where that's where the problem comes in, when you don't offer a variety of options you just only say, may I have your abt card, please.

00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:41.760 Michelle Dunlap: So I open up the book.

00:33:41.790 --> 00:33:56.640 Michelle Dunlap: With an example of an experience that I had with that and just my delight and pulling out my debit card and how I swiped it, you know slow dramatically, you know.

00:33:57.060 --> 00:34:10.110 Michelle Dunlap: and so forth i'm just because again i'm not that i'm placing any kind of judgment on a BT cards is just the fact of being stereotyped.

00:34:10.560 --> 00:34:14.490 Michelle Dunlap: Right, as all black people use abt cards.

00:34:14.550 --> 00:34:15.090 Michelle Dunlap: You know.

00:34:15.420 --> 00:34:21.090 Michelle Dunlap: At the end that's not fair, most people who use abt cars are only using them temporarily.

00:34:21.660 --> 00:34:31.620 Michelle Dunlap: And you, you know it and there's all kinds of ways that people pay and most users of abt cards are not black.

00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:37.740 Michelle Dunlap: So um so the stereotypes in there are really frustrating.

00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:39.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right right.

00:34:39.210 --> 00:34:51.810 Michelle Dunlap: That helps to give you a sense of the kinds of things, the monitoring the inequities the traumas and then, I have a section on philosophies and that's where.

00:34:52.620 --> 00:35:05.730 Michelle Dunlap: The interview we they experienced some of these other three things but they had a lot to say philosophically about how they put it into perspective, how they find it.

00:35:06.060 --> 00:35:21.510 Michelle Dunlap: How they put it into a larger context, so I wanted to have a section on philosophies because I felt that all of that that they were saying was very, very important for us to pay special attention to.

00:35:22.350 --> 00:35:29.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well i'm sure that your book has so many wonderful gems in it for people of color and also.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:40.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: For other folks as well, to help us to understand, again, you know that the context of what you're saying how people of color can say how do I get through.

00:35:40.890 --> 00:35:53.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This lived experience that i'm having, and so the philosophy part is really helping us to figure out how do I get through these daily acts of racism, but also it's important for.

00:35:55.020 --> 00:36:08.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know whites to know as well, what our experiences are so that they can become more conscious of their own actions and they can change their behavior, particularly the people who are in the stores.

00:36:08.610 --> 00:36:17.400 Michelle Dunlap: Absolutely, and that would include other consumers, how can they be good allies when they see these things going on.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:29.790 Michelle Dunlap: um, for example, the the white ally, who videotape the starbucks incident in Philadelphia, I believe it was had that white allied not done that.

00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:37.290 Michelle Dunlap: You know the whole movement that happened after that starbucks incident may not have occurred.

00:36:38.220 --> 00:36:50.280 Michelle Dunlap: So, so my book, it is designed to help those who are experiencing marketplace racism, but it's also designed for the marketers.

00:36:50.640 --> 00:37:05.520 Michelle Dunlap: For really any human being, who wants to be more sensitized to the daily experiences of black and brown people um and for the victims of it so it's really designed for anybody.

00:37:06.660 --> 00:37:27.990 Michelle Dunlap: And I believe that it will help sensitize people who do not live our experiences, it will help sensitize them to our experiences and hopefully help them do a better job i'm not recreating these kinds of behaviors and intervening as allies when they do occur.

00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:33.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, and you know, so you said so much in that piece there that.

00:37:34.470 --> 00:37:41.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'd love to explore, but one thing, in particular, you talked about the trauma and what are.

00:37:42.660 --> 00:38:01.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Some of the psychological implications of shopping while black and brown you know one is this trauma when you when you experience something like this, but another is the trauma of seeing it can you talk a little bit about what that trauma looks like yes.

00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:18.240 Michelle Dunlap: i'll be happy to i'm from the those who, whom I interviewed and from different articles that i've read in the news and in in the research literature, but i'm going to speak first from the interviewees okay.

00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:32.430 Michelle Dunlap: um some of the interviewees talked about not being able to sleep not being able to eat having to go see a psychiatrist a therapist or counselor having to get on medication.

00:38:33.090 --> 00:38:59.220 Michelle Dunlap: i'm being easily triggered again in the future i'm not liking to shop anymore if they have to shop, they just run in get what they need and run right back out or sending someone else in to do the shopping for them um so those kinds of those kinds of things which are so far from the.

00:39:01.050 --> 00:39:20.520 Michelle Dunlap: story that we tell ourselves about the marketplace in America, you know about the malls and about um you know going to the store, I mean there's even been traumas such as i'm at one really large retailers someone coming in and shooting up.

00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:33.810 Michelle Dunlap: The Hispanic people and what a horrible tragedy for for society for America, and especially for that community.

00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:50.490 Michelle Dunlap: When you're just going to shop and someone just decides they're going to start shooting people because of the color of your skin or because of their ethnicity and so forth, just think about that the impact that.

00:39:50.880 --> 00:40:00.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And and and one of the things that's occurring to me, even when you're talking about this, I mean it's so layered because part of the thing that happens, particularly with.

00:40:01.950 --> 00:40:13.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I think black and brown people we get used to experiencing the trauma and it almost becomes the norm for us to be expecting that this is going to happen, and unfortunately.

00:40:13.950 --> 00:40:20.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Some of us don't get the follow up treatment that we need, as a result of it because we think.

00:40:21.240 --> 00:40:30.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know this is just something that I have to deal with, and my recommendation as a as a psychologist, of course, would be, we have to get treated for this.

00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:40.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And not see this as the norm, this should not be the norm, that we can't go shopping without having to worry about is some one monitoring me.

00:40:40.890 --> 00:40:50.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We all do it, though, you know I trained my kids from when they were little don't touch this don't touch that because someone is going to be watching and imagine.

00:40:51.240 --> 00:41:00.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The messages we're sending to our children to say, be careful, you don't want anybody to think that you're stealing anything we're already setting.

00:41:01.770 --> 00:41:09.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: up this this sort of expectation that they're going to be monitored, because we know it's true that they will be so there's less little sets of.

00:41:10.290 --> 00:41:18.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Almost paranoia when you go into the store, but I also want our listening audience, to know that there's a difference between that type of.

00:41:19.140 --> 00:41:32.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Okay, let me make sure nobody thinks i'm stealing anything versus what you've just explain the trauma of i'm fearful of going in a store having nightmares about the incident.

00:41:32.970 --> 00:41:42.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: ruminating over the incident all of those things that you just mentioned are really, really critical, and so I want our listening audience, to know that.

00:41:42.690 --> 00:41:57.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: When you witness things or experienced these things is important for you to get the help that you need, and so we are at a point that we're going to have to take a break and just a minute and I want to just encourage.

00:41:59.160 --> 00:42:08.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Our listeners to really be sure to pick up a copy of your book you'll tell us a little bit at the end, how we can get a copy of your book because.

00:42:08.580 --> 00:42:27.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there's so much information in there that's really going to be valuable to consumers, as well as the allies, and so we are going to be right back with Dr dunlap discussing retail racism, a little bit more i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc, and this is dismantle racism we'll be right back.

00:44:58.470 --> 00:45:17.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with dismantle racism i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc my guest today is Dr Michelle dunlap the author of retail racism and Dr dunlap in our last few minutes together i'd love to have you to read a passage from your book, if you would.

00:45:18.660 --> 00:45:27.330 Michelle Dunlap: Okay um i'm going to read a passage from oulton, of course, the the names are pseudonyms.

00:45:29.040 --> 00:45:34.590 Michelle Dunlap: taken from people who have been um.

00:45:35.610 --> 00:45:47.610 Michelle Dunlap: Unfortunately, killed in the past by police or while shopping or wow doing something out in the Community, that they should not have been killed.

00:45:49.650 --> 00:45:58.680 Michelle Dunlap: killed for doing so oulton is for out alton sterling from baton rouge Louisiana.

00:45:59.910 --> 00:46:12.390 Michelle Dunlap: Who was killed, so this is actually a Reverend outen okay so Reverend oulton says, I clearly recall a situation where I experienced discrimination, while shopping.

00:46:12.690 --> 00:46:25.200 Michelle Dunlap: I can't remember exactly the store, but it was a discount department store right in town, I was it was in the 90 somewhere there abouts that time it was a store where I like to go into sort of tool around.

00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:38.430 Michelle Dunlap: Because of my way of shopping is is to just go and look around i'm probably an impulse buyer but not in a gross way but i'll look around and see if I find something, and if so i'll buy it.

00:46:38.970 --> 00:46:49.410 Michelle Dunlap: I like I like to do that and that's how I get new things, I was in this store and I was just sort of going through and looking around at different things and I noticed that I was being followed.

00:46:49.890 --> 00:46:59.490 Michelle Dunlap: And that's not a typical because that is always on my mind as i'm going into the store it's not a typical in bed i'll just presume that's going on.

00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:05.010 Michelle Dunlap: and almost at a paranoid level where I know that someone's looking at me somewhere.

00:47:05.610 --> 00:47:17.760 Michelle Dunlap: You just know black folks know that we are targeted for surveillance when we go into stores, but this time the person was just so horribly awkward at it, they were not good at all.

00:47:18.720 --> 00:47:27.330 Michelle Dunlap: I would, I would be going down an aisle and they'd be just sort of trailing me, and I would look up and i'd see them down in the aisle going around.

00:47:27.810 --> 00:47:32.850 Michelle Dunlap: They would just sort of class with about it and it offended me that they were just so inept.

00:47:33.180 --> 00:47:44.460 Michelle Dunlap: I think I may have been there after work hours, so I may have had my casual way of dressing, especially during the summer would just sort of a T shirt and a pair of jeans or something like that.

00:47:45.240 --> 00:47:53.370 Michelle Dunlap: i'm just going through and looking around, and I see the person usually I can maybe let things go, but I didn't want to just let this go this time.

00:47:53.640 --> 00:48:02.850 Michelle Dunlap: So I went up to the person and without customer anything I said look, will you do me a favor if you're going to follow me around at least be good about it.

00:48:03.540 --> 00:48:10.380 Michelle Dunlap: I can chuckle about it now, but at that time my tone was can you just hide a little better, or something.

00:48:11.220 --> 00:48:17.910 Michelle Dunlap: Actually, to be more specific, what I did was I went up and introduced myself to him see.

00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:31.800 Michelle Dunlap: This is a way out handle things I said look, my name is Reverend oulton i'm a chaplain at a local facility i'm not here, trying to steal anything, because that is not anything that I have on my mind.

00:48:32.250 --> 00:48:38.970 Michelle Dunlap: And if you're going to follow me at least do it a little better because it's just embarrassing both for you and for me.

00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:53.070 Michelle Dunlap: And reaction in reaction to being followed, I was presenting to him my annoyance around it, some weeks later, it turned out that the guy was a deacon at a church, I had been invited to preach at.

00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:58.950 Michelle Dunlap: It was an all white congregation and all and have a good time of fellowship.

00:48:59.490 --> 00:49:16.950 Michelle Dunlap: I finished my sermon and thought, no more about it, but he saw me and afterwards, when we met he said Reverend I am so embarrassed but I was embarrassed also I initially was a black man in the store who's going to steal everything.

00:49:18.750 --> 00:49:23.460 Michelle Dunlap: that's it that's just an excerpt from a much longer.

00:49:24.570 --> 00:49:35.430 Michelle Dunlap: interview that I had with Reverend oulton but it gives you some idea of the things that the interviewees had to see the interviewees had to say.

00:49:35.910 --> 00:49:44.820 Michelle Dunlap: And I want you to know that I offer a preference, a preface a rather long introduction contextualizing.

00:49:45.210 --> 00:49:55.470 Michelle Dunlap: All of this, and then I offer an introduction to each section each of those four sections and then I offer an introduction to each interview each of the.

00:49:56.070 --> 00:50:15.480 Michelle Dunlap: interviews and then in between all of that we have photos we have art, we have poetry from poets and spoken word artists all over the country so it's it's quite diverse in how the story is told.

00:50:15.720 --> 00:50:18.000 Michelle Dunlap: Across entire book.

00:50:18.600 --> 00:50:22.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, you know I thank you actually for sharing that it really took me.

00:50:23.070 --> 00:50:32.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Down memory lane of when i've been followed in a store and or when I think conscious, but then follow because there could be other times and.

00:50:32.640 --> 00:50:38.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, ironically, one of the times wasn't until after I had gotten out of the store, I was in a.

00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:50.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: coach store and I was really just looking at the calendar refills that they had, and so I looked at at the calendar refill and there was a security guard there.

00:50:50.850 --> 00:51:02.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Who was a who was watching me but I didn't realize at the time and then, so I go over I paid for it, and then I had a second thought went back over to look at the calendars again notice, he was right next to me.

00:51:03.180 --> 00:51:09.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then, when I walked out of the store he walked back to the front of the store and it wasn't until after I thought, did you just.

00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:20.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Follow me to see if i'm going to still a calorie the story isn't that big So you can see me from wherever you posted and then the I think the other upsetting thing, it was a person of color.

00:51:21.060 --> 00:51:21.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And like.

00:51:21.690 --> 00:51:34.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so they they really trainer all employees and sometimes as a person of color not even conscious that look they're telling you to target the folks of color.

00:51:35.040 --> 00:51:53.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so I really appreciate you telling these stories because, again, I think that those stories will be very beneficial to your readers I think for bypass people who are reading your book is not only is it a sense of.

00:51:54.840 --> 00:52:00.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: helping us just to understand the process that we go through psychologically.

00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:11.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But it also validates our experiences, because we also know that people will often say oh that just happened to you because X y&z.

00:52:12.180 --> 00:52:22.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But no, this is letting us know that this is something that's quite common and I also appreciate your book, from the perspective of it will help the employee you're.

00:52:22.620 --> 00:52:39.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The owners of these companies, etc, to understand how we can do a better job I want to really just thank our listeners today and hope that they will go out and get a copy of your book so, can you tell us how we can get a copy of your book.

00:52:40.830 --> 00:52:58.200 Michelle Dunlap: Yes, um it's available for pre order it comes out next month mid August, it will be actually physically here they are right now binding the covers to the actual book itself the publisher Roman and little field.

00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:06.690 Michelle Dunlap: So it's available through Roman and littlefield, which is our old w ma n.

00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:15.150 Michelle Dunlap: of knowledge, not our own, but our old w m a in Roman and littlefield publishers, so you can go to their website.

00:53:15.600 --> 00:53:32.490 Michelle Dunlap: And pre order it or you can go to Amazon it's on Amazon as well, I also want to let you know that that I made a contract contractual agreement with the publisher as part of my contract, when we were negotiating my.

00:53:32.490 --> 00:53:58.110 Michelle Dunlap: contract that any royalties that I earned from this book that 20% of those royalties go to an educational foundation so 20% of the royalties will go to the Florida education fund in Tampa Florida, which helps to ensure educational opportunities for underrepresented.

00:53:59.190 --> 00:54:17.790 Michelle Dunlap: Young people and young adults who are seeking higher education so i'm very proud of that i'm proud of being able to help support them, but it's really the the interviewees is the storytellers who are really helping to support.

00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:42.270 Michelle Dunlap: The Florida education fund is really you are the Community that's helping to support the Florida education fund so um so I really wanted to be able to do something as a thank you to the people who so bravely told their stories and that's my Thank you to them is.

00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:49.440 Michelle Dunlap: Making sure that 20% of any royalties that I get go to the Florida education fund.

00:54:50.040 --> 00:54:59.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, Dr don lab Thank you so much it's been a joy to have you on the show I am so grateful to all the listeners, and I want to invite you, if you want to.

00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:18.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: know more, or you want about the courses that I offer on dismantle racism, please go to my website sacred I have a number of classes there that you can take part in if you want to know more about Dr dunlap please go to Connecticut colleges website and.

00:55:20.550 --> 00:55:37.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You can find out a little bit more about her please do stay tuned for the conscious consultant hour with Sam leibowitz which is coming up right after my show and Dr dunlap if you would, could you offer us a blessing just to end the show yes.

00:55:37.530 --> 00:55:40.650 Michelle Dunlap: And i'm happy that I.

00:55:41.940 --> 00:55:43.410 Michelle Dunlap: wrote it just for this.

00:55:44.640 --> 00:55:56.520 Michelle Dunlap: Okay may our dealings with others reflect more and more the eternal love of the great and mighty hands that created the universe and set all the goodness in it into motion.

00:55:56.940 --> 00:56:14.700 Michelle Dunlap: And included that goodness and its potential in our hearts, maybe give this love see this love experienced this field, this and know this from the simplest to the most complex interactions that we have with one another, love wins.

00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:21.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thanks so much we'll see you next time on dismantle racism be well, thank you, father.

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