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Dismantle Racism with Rev. Dr. TLC

Thursday, July 1, 2021
1
Jul
Facebook Live Video from 2021/07/01 - Being Brown in a Black & White World

 
Facebook Live Video from 2021/07/01 - Being Brown in a Black & White World

 

2021/07/01 - Being Brown in a Black & White World

[NEW EPISODE] Being Brown in a Black & White World

Race is a social construct and is not real. Yet, we place so much emphasis on it. From filling out forms at the doctor's office to completing the census and more, we ask people to check off the box that indicates their racial identity. Though there is an "other" box, it does little to accurately describe those who are biracial. They often have to pick a side not only on such forms but in life as well.

Join Rev. Dr. TLC as she and her guest, Annemarie Shrouder, discuss the complexities and challenges of growing up as a biracial woman of color.

They will discuss Annemarie's book "Being Brown in a Black and White World: Conversations for Leaders on Race, Racism, and Belonging." She is a leader in the world of diversity and inclusions and will share her personal and professional experience in this arena.


Tune in for this important conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Facebook Livestream by Clicking Here.


Show Notes

Segment 1

The first segment opens with Rev Dr Terrlyn introducing today's show and guest. Today's show we welcome Annemarie Shrouder as her and Rev Dr Terrlyn discuss the complexities and challenge of growing up as a biracial woman of color. Annemarie Shrouder is a leader in the world of diversity and inclusions and will share her personal and professional experience in this arena. Today Rev Dr Terrlyn and Annemarie Shrouder will discuss Annemarie’s book “Being Brown in a Black and White World: Conversations for Leaders on Race, Racism, and Belonging”. Annemarie says that often the work she does can get overwhelming and stressful so finding things that keep her grounded is crucial to her line of work. Annemarie says that staying outdoors and her family are key elements in keeping grounded.

Segment 2

The second segment starts with the commercial break ending and the show starting. In this segment Annemarie discusses the invisible place of either or and in some opinions not being black enough. Annemarie says that growing with a black father and white mother she felt out of place and that she didn't belong. This feeling of not belonging led to a mixed view of herself and how the world views her as a biracial woman. She explains that often she felt like she needed to be more white or more black, but was confused on what that even meant. Annemarie contributes this confusion, at no fault to, her mother who she would spend the most time with growing up. She explains having a white mother while existing as half black was difficult in her early life trying to traverse the black and white world we live in.

Segment 3

The third segment starts with the show coming back up from break. Rev Dr Terrlyn then picks the conversation back up with Annemarie discussing being biracial and how one embodies race. Annemarie continues the conversation discussing her experiences growing up in a predominately white culture and how that shaped how she saw herself. Annemarie says that as a child she wanted to be more prominent in her black culture, but having spent more time with her white mother growing up molded another perspective.

Segment 4

The final segment starts with the show coming back from break and Annemarie sharing how her experience influences the work she does. Annemarie says the war between either or, black or white, this or that, she experiences in her body, life, and very existence. This war between choosing one or the other has taught her that now more than ever we need to come together. Annemarie says that a main contributor to understanding race even in her adult life is her daughter.


Transcript

00:00:32.580 --> 00:00:35.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Welcome welcome welcome to dismantling races.

00:00:37.050 --> 00:00:51.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: With your host the Reverend Dr tlc and of course I am the Reverend Dr tlc our goal is to uncover dismantle and eradicate racism and create a world where racial equity is the norm.

00:00:51.690 --> 00:01:07.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am so excited about today's show i'm always excited about the show, but today we're going to talk about being Brown and a black and white world now, of course, we always want to start out the show just by simply centering ourselves.

00:01:08.580 --> 00:01:11.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and taking in some really, really deep breaths.

00:01:12.990 --> 00:01:32.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So that we are present to being in this space and, in this time, knowing that whatever we discuss in this moment, whatever feelings that come up as a result of the topic, all we have to do is breathe.

00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:35.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe breathe.

00:01:36.870 --> 00:01:40.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To take a breath gives us life.

00:01:41.250 --> 00:01:42.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: gives us energy.

00:01:44.880 --> 00:01:46.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it restores us.

00:01:48.090 --> 00:01:50.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So i'm simply asking you to take a deep breath in.

00:01:52.590 --> 00:01:53.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in calm.

00:01:55.470 --> 00:01:56.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in peace.

00:01:59.910 --> 00:02:02.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Read in unity.

00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:09.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe out those places where there is either or.

00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:15.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But breathe in acceptance, where there is both and.

00:02:18.180 --> 00:02:19.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe out.

00:02:21.810 --> 00:02:22.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hate.

00:02:24.480 --> 00:02:26.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe out of the ring.

00:02:28.170 --> 00:02:30.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And just simply breathe and togetherness.

00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:33.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: take a deep breath in.

00:02:35.760 --> 00:02:36.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And exhale.

00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:45.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Knowing that you are in the right place at the right time to receive what you need.

00:02:47.130 --> 00:02:51.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To do better and to help transform the world.

00:02:57.660 --> 00:02:59.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, yes, yes.

00:03:00.990 --> 00:03:10.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am so excited to talk with today's guests, because we are again are going to be talking about being brown in a black and white world.

00:03:11.190 --> 00:03:26.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And we know that we talked about race a lot in this country and we talked about it, some other countries as well, but race really is a social construct it's not real it's made up, but yet we have to act within the parameter.

00:03:26.730 --> 00:03:36.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Of that made up system, so it doesn't matter whether you're completing this census are going to your doctor's office or completing paperwork in school.

00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:58.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you're often asked to check off a box and checking off that box can be painful, particularly if you feel that you don't meet the criteria for anything that's listed in the check offs, so why do we have them, why are they necessary and How are people who are biracial.

00:03:59.730 --> 00:04:07.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: supposed to understand who they are, in the context of the boxes that are presented are they invisible.

00:04:09.390 --> 00:04:10.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Do they matter.

00:04:12.300 --> 00:04:29.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What are we saying as a people as a country as a world when we ask people to leave out parts of themselves so that they will be more included with the rest of the world.

00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:36.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We do that all the time when we talk about race, whether we're blocking out people of color.

00:04:37.950 --> 00:04:41.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Black a Tina native American.

00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:48.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Asian American and of course I speak from the perspective of American, but we do it everywhere.

00:04:49.620 --> 00:04:53.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So what are we asking people to do and we say.

00:04:54.990 --> 00:04:55.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: pick.

00:04:56.550 --> 00:05:06.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And that is often the case when you are biracial people will say, particularly when it comes to black or white, what are you are you black, are you white.

00:05:07.110 --> 00:05:17.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well today's guests and reach router will talk a lot about that and she'll talk to us about her story, on a personal level, and a professional level.

00:05:17.970 --> 00:05:30.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of dealing with being Brown and a black and white world she is the author of the title being Brown and a black and white world conversations for leaders on race.

00:05:31.080 --> 00:05:39.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Racism and belonging and we're going to talk both about her personal experiences and our professional experiences, but just so that you know a little bit more about her.

00:05:40.650 --> 00:05:48.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She assists organizations to create healthy workplace communities where people are seen heard and valued for who they are.

00:05:48.630 --> 00:06:04.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what they have to offer where programs and services are impactful relevant and meaningful her passion is to create opportunities for people to pay attention and notice more of each other themselves and the world around them.

00:06:06.270 --> 00:06:12.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and Marie is so engaging and dynamic as a speaker and a workshop facilitator.

00:06:12.570 --> 00:06:23.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She is an expert, and so I if you've if you get the opportunity to be a part of her programs or her classes, I invite you to take them.

00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:30.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What is also amazing about her is that she is the mother of an eight year old, and that is really relevant as we're going.

00:06:30.810 --> 00:06:41.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Through our conversations today and she is committed to building understanding through conversation and connection and really creating a world where her child.

00:06:41.970 --> 00:06:50.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: can grow up and feel like she belongs, so I want to welcome to the show today my colleague and my friend.

00:06:51.180 --> 00:07:05.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and Marie router, who is from Canada, I also want to make sure that I say that because much of what she will be talking about is also from her perspective of being a Canadian welcome welcome welcome and Marie to the show.

00:07:05.850 --> 00:07:11.100 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Thank you, thank you, Dr Dale and it's a pleasure to be here with you, thank you.

00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:17.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well emery we're going to jump right into it, because it always feels like we don't have enough time when we're on the show.

00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:26.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And one of the things that I first and foremost like to start out talking about this work of dismantling racism.

00:07:26.580 --> 00:07:36.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is deep soulful and spirited work to me and I always start from a place of thinking about our shared humanity.

00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:45.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So for me that place is a spiritual place and it also grounds me to think about that.

00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:57.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am divinely created, and so is everyone else, and so, for me, spirit is important, my sacred time is important and it's one of the things that helps to ground me so i'd like to kind of start out.

00:07:58.260 --> 00:08:08.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What to do to stay grounded in this work, do you have any sort of practice that you're able to go back to when the world seems to be spinning out of control that grounds, you.

00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:16.560 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I wish I had a regular practice, you know i'm working on the regularity of the practice, but there are a few things I do I love to be in nature that's my.

00:08:17.010 --> 00:08:24.600 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know, special grounding place so when I can get out of the city right now i'm surrounded by it, you may be able to see in the reflection behind me.

00:08:26.430 --> 00:08:34.680 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): that's really, really important for me spending time with my child definitely brings me back to the importance right and the connection to spirit.

00:08:36.300 --> 00:08:36.990 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And then.

00:08:39.270 --> 00:08:49.890 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): More and more, I try to remember to connect with the ancestors and that's been a really interesting journey, for me, because those ancestors now are are all colors.

00:08:50.820 --> 00:08:52.110 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): When I close my eyes, I can.

00:08:52.230 --> 00:09:08.910 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I can see them all and and i've done, you know spiritual work and energy work and healing work in the last several years and they used to literally be on other opposite sides of the fire and now they're all in it together, so I like to close my eyes and remember.

00:09:09.990 --> 00:09:12.930 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): That, even though I often forget that they're there they're always there.

00:09:13.380 --> 00:09:13.920 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And that really.

00:09:14.070 --> 00:09:16.230 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): can be strength to get through, you know.

00:09:17.160 --> 00:09:20.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, I think that's actually beautiful, because one of the things that we've talked about.

00:09:21.330 --> 00:09:28.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Within a church setting is, we often use this term of being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.

00:09:29.040 --> 00:09:41.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I think that that's absolutely amazing to really think about the ancestors, who are helping to get us to this place that we are now, and when I think about your ancestry.

00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:59.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It is that mixture of black and white, and what that must be like for you for those ancestors to really come together and to be one because of their love for you actually right and and when you also think about it.

00:10:00.690 --> 00:10:15.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are not the bodies that we inhabit we are spirit, and so my my hope that my prayer is that once they're over, on the other side, none of this matters and that we're all coming together trying to figure this this out so yeah.

00:10:16.050 --> 00:10:27.390 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I think you know that's a really good point and I think, for me it was just my my integration that allowed me to see their integration right, but allow me to remember that we're not, this is the suit that we were.

00:10:28.140 --> 00:10:36.510 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): But it was really powerful for me when that shift occurred in that envisioning of envision of my ancestors, it was it was a beautiful moment.

00:10:36.930 --> 00:10:37.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm.

00:10:37.740 --> 00:10:40.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, every you know say i'm sorry.

00:10:40.680 --> 00:10:41.520 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I can feel them.

00:10:41.910 --> 00:10:53.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, so so so an array I really want to jump into your book a bit and want to encourage people to buy your book, because not only is your book for.

00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:59.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: leaders who want to have conversations on race, racism and belonging, but I think it's so important.

00:10:59.580 --> 00:11:15.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I would talk about your personal experience as well, because what the personal experience does is it helps us to think about what we're doing day to day when we interact with individuals, and so I really would like for us to start by by.

00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:31.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there's an excerpt I would love for you to read from your book and and since I already told you what that is we're going to just jump right into reading that expert and then we'll go into a little bit more of conversation about it.

00:11:31.680 --> 00:11:33.450 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Okay So here we go.

00:11:34.500 --> 00:11:43.500 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): To me, black culture, the black world in all its diversity has always felt like something I watched with my nose pressed against the glass.

00:11:43.920 --> 00:11:55.140 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): it's close enough to see up close, but not to touch and experience I keep wishing that I could break through that my skin was darker to allow entry and my knowledge deeper to allow me to sink in.

00:11:56.340 --> 00:12:03.030 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): This is a pain, I have carried my whole life, despite my new focus in place of both, and I still feel it.

00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:12.450 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Although less it still creates a lump in my throat and the pinprick of tears behind my eyes what have I missed, I will never know.

00:12:13.590 --> 00:12:31.230 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): it's not just my color that has kept me apart it's experience and immersion my life it's the invisible barrier created by either or but that gap has always felt like a shortcoming, like, I was not enough, I always wished, I was darker skinned that I was more black.

00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:34.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and Marie.

00:12:36.030 --> 00:12:42.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If I were facilitating right now I would allow us time to just breathe in which you've just said.

00:12:43.770 --> 00:12:57.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I want us to unpack unpack this idea in visibility and what it means to stand in this place of not being black enough.

00:12:58.020 --> 00:13:03.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And while you don't say it in your your book explicitly in the same way as you say, not being black about.

00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:10.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there's this part of not being wide enough to to some extent, even though you say you know talk about in your.

00:13:10.590 --> 00:13:16.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Book having grown up, of course, knowing more about your mother's background and growing up in a white.

00:13:17.190 --> 00:13:33.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: world and so that's the identification, to some degree, so when we return from the break and Marie we're going to unpack what that means for you and perhaps what it means to many people out here who are biracial and how do we began to.

00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:45.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: bridge that gap between either or into both and we'll be right back with dismantle racism, with the Reverend Dr tlc with my guest today and reach router.

00:16:14.370 --> 00:16:29.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with dismantle racism with Reverend Dr tlc and my guest today emery shadow emery before the break we started a conversation around really this in in visibility.

00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:42.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: place of being either or and also not being black enough, can you talk a little bit more about that, and your experience and how it showed up a little bit for you.

00:16:43.290 --> 00:17:04.080 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Sure, so my my overwhelming feeling memory of being of growing up is is one of not belonging, so in my family that was a very, very tangible physical running back and forth between maternal and paternal family members, because there was a risk that I could feel.

00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:19.860 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): But in my life just not feeling like I had a place to land and I and there's several I mean the whole table, if you look to the table of contents there's that trajectory that journey of going from like neither like like invisible nothingness to them.

00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.240 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): really making a choice of being neither because I was you know.

00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:31.560 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I don't say I was consciously tired of trying to be one or the other but i'm kind of like a ping pong game.

00:17:32.760 --> 00:17:41.190 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know and and in high school even before high school, I guess, when I removed from Montreal to Ontario.

00:17:41.730 --> 00:17:49.920 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): mississauga Ontario when I was just starting high school and I remember just I was, I was not black enough for the black kids I wasn't white.

00:17:50.460 --> 00:18:01.110 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So where where was I supposed to be, you know I never really knew where I was supposed to be, and I wasn't I didn't feel grounded enough in myself to just be where I am.

00:18:01.560 --> 00:18:18.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, so I it's so interesting because a lot of times, people say when they are entering into a biracial or interracial relationship oh love is love and it doesn't matter you know we just have kids.

00:18:19.170 --> 00:18:31.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And we just love them i've had that conversation so many times with people i've had people say why are you bringing up ratio being racist when you say that, but here we hear you talking about being.

00:18:33.060 --> 00:18:34.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: torn in between.

00:18:36.300 --> 00:18:46.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What would you say to families about having the conversation about race, because all too often people want to just pretend like it doesn't exist.

00:18:47.940 --> 00:19:02.640 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): yeah, we have to have those conversations about race and the challenges that in a biracial household maybe people, maybe some of the people, maybe half of the people don't know how to do that and and it's it's.

00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:14.460 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): it's a it's a big part of who we are, so my everybody right but but as racialized individuals that's the word we like to use in Canada has reached individuals.

00:19:15.690 --> 00:19:31.080 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Let me, let me make it personal my mom is European my mom is white European my mom and dad are both immigrants to Canada okay so so my experience being biracial is confounded by or complicated by the immigrant experience.

00:19:31.410 --> 00:19:33.720 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yes, I didn't know what it was like to grow up in Canada.

00:19:35.370 --> 00:19:42.270 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Second, of all my mom is wait So what does what does a white mother know about raising a brown child or a black time.

00:19:44.310 --> 00:19:44.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Now.

00:19:45.060 --> 00:19:48.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hey very interesting right because you probably just.

00:19:48.810 --> 00:19:50.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, pick some feathers there when you said what.

00:19:50.910 --> 00:19:54.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: does it say more about that tell same for.

00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:05.550 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So love is love, yes, we love our children, no matter what absolutely my mother has told me many times in my lifetime Oh, you know I don't see your color you're my child.

00:20:06.660 --> 00:20:06.840 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and

00:20:07.260 --> 00:20:08.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right i'm realizing that that.

00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:16.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in and of itself it's like mom I need you to see my color because it's like a micro aggression really it's it's yeah.

00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:30.510 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So I know, and I use this in workshops all the time, I know that what my mother is trying to say is I don't see you as having less value, like the world sees you you're my child I know that's what she's trying to say but i'm like, how can you not see my color.

00:20:32.520 --> 00:20:38.040 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): right but, but we have had many conversations about that my mother bless her heart is 83.

00:20:39.090 --> 00:20:45.180 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I love her she's amazing she's come a long way and her awareness about all sorts of things, including.

00:20:46.290 --> 00:20:49.290 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): race, but that conversation she doesn't quite get.

00:20:50.460 --> 00:21:07.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: uh huh and a part of the reason why I think it's so important for us to say this because we want to help people to understand is because, if you do not immerse yourself and understanding other people other cultures, other races.

00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:21.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it's hard for you to really talk to your child about even how the world will see you, and then to offer even protections for those children because experiences are different.

00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:30.060 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): yeah how do I help my child navigate the world if I have had a very different experience in them, and that that could be about anything but around race.

00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:35.640 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know, we need there's things that we need to teach our kids there's things that we need to that we need to you know set.

00:21:36.060 --> 00:21:43.800 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Sit them down and talk about there's things that I have on my radar more than my mom did and and less than my other Co parents, because they're black.

00:21:44.670 --> 00:21:52.170 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): hey there's things that I can help my child navigate through quite as well as or sometimes at all, as her black parents, but she's cutting parents.

00:21:52.590 --> 00:21:55.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah i'm so blessed to have three parents.

00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:55.830 let's.

00:21:57.300 --> 00:21:57.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Go.

00:21:57.660 --> 00:22:02.760 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know so love is like don't get me wrong love is super important and.

00:22:03.360 --> 00:22:09.660 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): there's there's conversations we didn't have around even with my dad there's conversations that we didn't have around my table at home.

00:22:10.170 --> 00:22:25.260 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): there's there's lived experience that I now and going back and wondering was that about race like Am I like did I did this did I did this happen, and then I created like I might do is that, am I dealing with the impact of racism, I had nowhere to talk about that.

00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:44.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But but tell me about the silence then and re you had a couple of experiences that you talk about in the book that you kind of question like Oh, what is that about talk about the silence of not feeling comfortable going to either parent to really explore this.

00:22:44.970 --> 00:22:57.870 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know what I don't know if it was not comfortable i'm Reverend Dr tlc I think it was just not even being aware, it was a thing to talk about like oh my gosh that's even worse.

00:22:58.260 --> 00:22:58.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: uh huh.

00:22:59.490 --> 00:23:06.480 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): This is not something that I, that that you can't you can't you can't explain it you can't describe it.

00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:12.030 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And you don't have the language to talk about it, because your parents haven't modeled that for you, your parents aren't.

00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:20.160 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Engaging you in those kind of conversations to bring the radar up so that you can navigate the world with an awareness of what it's like to be racialized I didn't have that.

00:23:20.790 --> 00:23:21.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: All my.

00:23:21.420 --> 00:23:21.840 Time.

00:23:22.860 --> 00:23:23.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But that's.

00:23:23.550 --> 00:23:26.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Your being your data say it again.

00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:27.480 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And that is a black man.

00:23:27.570 --> 00:23:33.090 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And he grew up in Caribbean so his lived experience is completely different, even though he's black you didn't grow up in Canada.

00:23:33.570 --> 00:23:48.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right right, and also with him growing up in the Caribbean, he had people who looks like him who were in power and he got it he understood what he needed to do to navigate Canada, but didn't really talk to you.

00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:57.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Fully about what to do to navigate Canada and perhaps if you had been around more people of color you would have heard some things.

00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:00.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right it's also different when you're biracial.

00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:06.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And you grow up with only white people because we don't know what we don't know.

00:24:07.590 --> 00:24:21.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So we're we're in this place of this is my lived experience and it's not into were exposed do we see the world differently, and so what would you say to.

00:24:22.620 --> 00:24:39.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, a young black of biracial not not just black but biracial child or teenager about how to navigate being biracial and really owning who you are as a biracial person.

00:24:40.470 --> 00:24:41.040 um.

00:24:42.210 --> 00:24:50.610 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Well, I mean what I would say now is very different, probably than what I would say, several years ago, but now I would say is you know we're both.

00:24:51.570 --> 00:24:55.590 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): i'm not black and i'm not white, but i'm a little bit of both yeah.

00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:02.100 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And so I don't have a black experience I don't have a white experience I have my experience and that experience encompasses.

00:25:02.310 --> 00:25:18.840 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): knowing what it feels like to be racialized and experienced racism, knowing what it feels like to have privilege and be light skinned and I have to embody all of that to to make my way through the world and use the gifts that I have to be in the middle middle and we're in the middle.

00:25:19.260 --> 00:25:20.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right well I.

00:25:22.050 --> 00:25:27.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, you just said something really important to and this this whole issue around skin color you know because.

00:25:28.050 --> 00:25:39.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In the black Community it's all in the black Community skin color is huge, but it's still all about navigating whiteness right because the closer you are to whiteness sometimes.

00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:50.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The more value your your seem to have had to have, however, it also can be a source of severe pain for light skinned black people when.

00:25:51.600 --> 00:26:00.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: darker skinned black folks are saying mean and nasty things, and so, when we talk about dismantling racism, we also have to start looking at our.

00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:13.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: own culture and look at internalized racism and how that exists, so you know I can think about when I grew up if a person of color in my community.

00:26:13.890 --> 00:26:21.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: were fair skin, they were considered beautiful just because they had light skin and I will never forget, when I was in college, I had this really.

00:26:22.260 --> 00:26:26.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: close friend of mine who was very, very light skin and she.

00:26:27.150 --> 00:26:37.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Her her grandmother was white I think her mom was like her dad was biracial and so she was very, very fair and she would say to me well you know, like when I would tell her like when I grew up light skin being.

00:26:38.430 --> 00:26:43.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The meaning that you were prettier she said um.

00:26:44.490 --> 00:26:57.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i've seen a whole lot of light skin go to waste, then, and so we laughed about it, but there was still a lot of pain in that and thankfully, for me, I grew up in a family that valued all types of.

00:26:58.080 --> 00:27:15.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: skin color and particularly grew up really just embracing the darker hue, for me, because I could just look at it and say oh my gosh look at at the beauty, not that it wasn't for lighter skin, but the issue is, why do we need to even have that conversation, and why in.

00:27:17.310 --> 00:27:28.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Do we still embrace skin color in that way and so what's really important, I think, in this conversation, particularly for.

00:27:28.560 --> 00:27:34.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A white parents who are raising biracial kids is to know that history.

00:27:34.560 --> 00:27:49.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to know how your kid is going to be perceived to know the pain to know the conflict and that's The thing that I, I really hope our listeners will get from this conversation is that, as a biracial woman you.

00:27:50.220 --> 00:28:00.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: are having a whole different dialogue than either your White parents or your black parent absolutely and there wasn't a consideration, I think the other thing that complicates it.

00:28:01.320 --> 00:28:13.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is that in this country, if you have an eighth of black blood and you, you are considered black so when people choose to say well i'm not black.

00:28:14.040 --> 00:28:25.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And white or on this, it creates a lot of tension for black people, because we know that that's how we've been you know labeled if you have an eighth of black blood.

00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:35.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But it also just creates complication overall doesn't it because you can be very, very fair skin and you could pass for white and.

00:28:36.840 --> 00:28:51.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Why shouldn't you be able to choose, whatever it is that you want, if you're comfortable with it, but we have to take another break, so we will be right back with my guest today and Marie shredder on dismantle racism.

00:31:39.510 --> 00:31:52.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am back with emory shredder who is my guest today on dismantle racism, we were talking about so much in our last segment and I want to continue our discussion around.

00:31:54.120 --> 00:32:05.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Being biracial and how does one embody race, which is a made up construct as we've talked about, and before the break, we were talking about.

00:32:06.150 --> 00:32:20.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How does a white parent really teach a child of color about what it means to be a child of color and what happens when white parents don't address the issue of race at all so emery I just want you to jump in and and and.

00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:26.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: from any of those places that we were talking about prior to the break and add a little bit more of.

00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:29.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: understanding for us.

00:32:30.060 --> 00:32:44.040 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): yeah i'd be happy to um for me the embodying part comes from something you said before the break that escapes me now, but I was thinking about my experience, and especially in high school and just feeling like there was no place for me to land.

00:32:44.610 --> 00:32:55.080 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And because I always wanted to be more black where I really wanted to land was in the black space, you know, I just wanted to sink in there and just be there and be welcomed and surrounded and that didn't happen.

00:32:56.280 --> 00:33:02.910 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And so I wonder, you know part of that was me right part of that was me feeling not good enough and and keeping myself at a distance.

00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:16.980 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): If my home life had been different if I had been more immersed in black culture in my home remember you know I grew up in the 70s, so I had a stay at home mom and a dad who worked two jobs yeah he was a corporate and at night he taught night school.

00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:24.120 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So I spent most of my time with my mom I spent summers with my mom because because she was home with me.

00:33:24.750 --> 00:33:31.110 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I wonder what my experience, would have been like in navigating black spaces and navigating.

00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:45.300 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Black communities, if my dad if I had been able to spend more time with my dad if we had had more friends from the you know Jamaican friends black friends, if I had had I had I had quite a few friends of color when I was a kid both biracial and black.

00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:56.910 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): But I think just what we're what we're immersed in at home, both from a cultural perspective and awareness perspective, like and the conversations that we have because remember.

00:33:58.350 --> 00:34:02.670 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Just because my dad was black we didn't have a lot of conversations about race.

00:34:02.670 --> 00:34:04.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right right so that.

00:34:05.040 --> 00:34:15.120 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Even if even if he wasn't, even if we didn't spend a lot of time together and didn't see a lot of other folks from you know from black communities, maybe if we had talked about it more it still might have been a different experience.

00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:21.810 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So so that's one thing I thought about and then i've often thought in you and I have talked about this before um.

00:34:23.220 --> 00:34:25.290 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I think it depends on which parent is black.

00:34:25.890 --> 00:34:30.840 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Right right now in my case, I spent a lot of time with my mom is my mom had been black.

00:34:31.680 --> 00:34:41.880 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I probably would have have a completely different world view because we would have been going to the black side of my family in the summertime and we would have been right my grandmother that I spend a lot of time it would have been my black grandmother.

00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:45.240 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Different experience so.

00:34:45.630 --> 00:34:53.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Exactly I mean because so much of parenting the earth, that the ads out here, it has nothing to do that, but yeah.

00:34:53.580 --> 00:34:59.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: nurture in a different way and if your experience is a black experience, because there are plenty of black people grow up.

00:35:00.240 --> 00:35:09.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In in white culture and who navigate whiteness so well that they really don't want to have anything to do their black culture but we're talking about in general, those people who grow up.

00:35:10.170 --> 00:35:17.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: With a hadn't been immersed in black culture and embrace their black culture when you're raising a child.

00:35:17.370 --> 00:35:25.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Regardless of whether that child is biracial or not nine times out of 10 they're going to grow up understanding, who they are, as a black.

00:35:25.830 --> 00:35:37.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: person, while at the same time, hopefully honoring who they are as whatever the other race that they happen to be, but most often in this country again because.

00:35:37.350 --> 00:35:45.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you have an eighth of black blood in you, depending on what state you live in in the United States you're considered black, and so I think what we do.

00:35:46.080 --> 00:35:58.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is We then raise our children, based on the ways in which we know, the world is going to treat them, and so, for me, growing up as a black woman and then raising black.

00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:07.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: daughters, I have to teach them how to navigate this world, they can now my kids are not by ratio, but they can think let's say that they're white all they want to, I have to say you're not.

00:36:08.310 --> 00:36:14.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And this is how the world is going to treat you it's just a different conversation that we have but.

00:36:14.850 --> 00:36:29.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: emery before my shift because I also want to have some time to talk about your own experience with raising your daughter, and how it might be different from your mom just if someone had the question of why is it, why is there this.

00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:45.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Inner longing and wanting to fit into the black community, why not just be comfortable in the white Community talk about that a little bit because some people might have that question and you know.

00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:49.710 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): My first response my gut responses, but i'm not white.

00:36:50.910 --> 00:36:56.340 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So so like you know go over there you're more you're more you're later you're more like them i'm not.

00:36:56.910 --> 00:37:05.040 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): i'm I might be i'm not more like i'm just as different to them, as I am to the others so so back to the like.

00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:21.000 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): don't really fit Now I know how to navigate white spaces i'm very comfortable in white spaces i've been told that i'm that i'm to way not black enough by other people that I have that I don't have a black gaze again I own them I didn't that's not something that I learned right.

00:37:21.090 --> 00:37:23.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Our audience what you mean by that black gaze.

00:37:25.590 --> 00:37:30.090 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I see that I don't see the world through a lens of blackness OK.

00:37:31.350 --> 00:37:37.980 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And that was that's in my best stories in my book, and that was something that came up oh my gosh how many years ago now, not that many you know.

00:37:38.490 --> 00:37:43.470 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): uh huh years, maybe um and I was like we mean.

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:53.670 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Right and I had to I had to really sit with it and, yes, absolutely I was, I was brought up one of my poems is I was raised by white people I was right.

00:37:54.240 --> 00:38:04.080 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So I don't so I see the world through my through my days as a biracial person, but more so through white days, because that's what i've been immersed in the most that's what I was taught.

00:38:04.530 --> 00:38:11.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm, so I think it's important than because it helps people to understand that.

00:38:12.330 --> 00:38:23.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Again you're not either or and the md longing is to know more about who you are and to honor all of who you are not just pieces of who you are.

00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:30.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so I wanted to make sure that we got that message across to people that and to say.

00:38:30.510 --> 00:38:37.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, why don't you just accept one or the other, particularly why don't you just accept being white would be to devalue being black.

00:38:38.040 --> 00:38:52.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So talk to me a little bit because I want to make sure that we, we also have this discussion you before the break we mentioned that your daughter has three parents and how amazing is that but talk to me about.

00:38:52.530 --> 00:39:01.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What it's like for you, raising your daughter, and how it might be different from the ways in which your parents raised you around race.

00:39:02.430 --> 00:39:19.620 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): yeah so um some of it is very different, some of it is not so different, as it turns out, I i'm the white parent in this scenario i'm like one of my poems is you know i'm my mom in this in this situation because there's so many things that I don't know about being black.

00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:31.380 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): surprise you know, I was very conscious when when planning to have a child that I wanted a child who looked like me because i've had so many experiences as a child of.

00:39:31.710 --> 00:39:38.760 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Being with my mom and not having people not recognize us as mother and child, and so I didn't want to replicate that as an adult with my child.

00:39:40.770 --> 00:39:46.830 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And so, because i'm part of the LGBT Q plus community and I, you know wanted to know and owner I got to pick.

00:39:48.210 --> 00:39:49.530 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Who, I was going to have a job with.

00:39:50.850 --> 00:39:55.710 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And so I chose somebody of color I chose somebody black a black man.

00:39:57.090 --> 00:40:03.870 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Coincidentally, my skin tone is exactly like mine, like you, gotta be careful with your words exactly like mine, we look very much alike.

00:40:05.730 --> 00:40:16.230 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And I quickly realized that I was at a deficit because, for example, small example small but big example I don't know how to do formulas.

00:40:18.270 --> 00:40:21.030 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So here's here's my black child right.

00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:30.210 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Who she now identifies as black for a long time she wants to be white, so we just started she wanted to be like, and that was so painful for me and I didn't get it, I never wanted to be white.

00:40:30.510 --> 00:40:38.610 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I always wanted to be more black and i'm like what so I went through a whole process of what am I doing wrong like we know she's surrounded by people of color and people who are blah what.

00:40:39.870 --> 00:40:51.810 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And I, and I didn't know that pain exactly and her dad does her hair, by the way, he's fabulous he's fabulous period and he's fabulous doing here, so he.

00:40:52.380 --> 00:40:53.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: fabulous, no matter what.

00:40:53.820 --> 00:41:12.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because i'm shocked i'm like absolutely shocked to hear you say that because I don't find that I find that more and more the younger men are definitely into doing their daughter's hair that was never the case in in my household so you know more power to him for.

00:41:14.490 --> 00:41:14.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That.

00:41:15.300 --> 00:41:28.500 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): it's amazing so um so so and I think I mentioned before there's things that I don't know how to help her navigate as well as her dad or mom driven unknown because.

00:41:29.670 --> 00:41:30.210 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): they're black.

00:41:31.740 --> 00:41:39.030 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): was partially raised in Canada, one of them is partially based in the in the in the Caribbean so again it's a different experience of growing up.

00:41:40.140 --> 00:41:50.250 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): But I you know I have had a moment of Oh, maybe I should have had a white kid because maybe I would have been able to know what that experience was like more isn't that bizarre.

00:41:51.150 --> 00:41:54.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So in so what it what it actually shows is that we're always.

00:41:55.290 --> 00:42:04.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Always growing always questioning, but one thing that I want to say to you and Ray and I know this from the work that you do, and I know this from reading your book.

00:42:04.740 --> 00:42:16.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You actually know more about raising a black kid and you think that you do and it's something that I really want to make sure that I that that I impress up on our listening audience and when i'm talking about the.

00:42:17.550 --> 00:42:31.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This, in my courses when you become informed when you become conscious and aware of race and racism and how it shows up and you began to immerse yourself and learning about the other.

00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:33.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Then.

00:42:34.650 --> 00:42:44.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Maybe it doesn't matter that who you who you love who you parents and all of that, because you're coming in with an understanding, and so I just want to.

00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:53.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: invite our listening audience to please go out, please take more classes, please understand if you want to know more about the classes that.

00:42:54.180 --> 00:43:10.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I offer please go to my website sacred intelligence calm and Marie will be sure to leave her information as well before we were off this call, so that whether you're in Canada or wherever, because she's on the islands now so she she teaches from all over.

00:43:11.790 --> 00:43:25.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Take a class make sure that you are immersing yourself in understanding how racism shows up and also understanding how.

00:43:26.040 --> 00:43:27.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: racialized people.

00:43:29.070 --> 00:43:38.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It really does impact our lives, you can hear it and Andrey story, not just when she was a child, but now, when it comes to how she's raising her own child.

00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:51.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We have to take another quick break and when we return and Riyadh would love for us to spend the last few minutes talking about how does being in this place of either or.

00:43:52.020 --> 00:44:03.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: relate to the work that you do on diversity and inclusion we'll be right back with dismantle racism on your host the Reverend Dr tlc with my guest today and Marie shredder.

00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:29.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with dismantle racism i'm your host Reverend Dr tlc with my guest today, Mr reese router who is in the islands and.

00:46:30.150 --> 00:46:46.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know she looks like she's a little bit hot, but you know I would take the islands, right now, if I could, if I could be there, but emery in our remaining few minutes I would love for you to just share a little bit about.

00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:56.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Being in this place of either or how it has influenced the work that you do as a diversity and inclusion expert.

00:46:58.350 --> 00:47:04.620 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Sure um you know bottom line and influences the work I do because that's the experience that i've had in my life.

00:47:05.670 --> 00:47:14.970 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): The same either organise that we see in the world around race awesome them white and black you me like separate i've experienced in my body.

00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:23.970 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): As a biracial person, and so I navigate that can I navigate creating a connection.

00:47:24.630 --> 00:47:32.880 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): that's my that's my my mission My guess my new mission is to navigate the creation of connections and so what that means for me is.

00:47:33.150 --> 00:47:42.540 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I always do this and I talk about my work the both and right we have work to do in our in our separate right we have work to do as black people as people of color we have work to do as white people around racism.

00:47:43.590 --> 00:47:44.130 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): In ratio race.

00:47:45.750 --> 00:47:46.410 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and

00:47:47.610 --> 00:47:55.080 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): If we stay there, we run the risk of perpetuating the same energies that were that we're dealing with and that and that's painful.

00:47:55.410 --> 00:48:03.300 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Right and painful for all of us right differently painful different impacts us differently absolutely but we're all impacted I believe.

00:48:03.720 --> 00:48:20.250 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And so the both and approach brings you know it's about bringing those two sides together we each do our own work, we come together there's space that I endeavor to create for sharing for listening for hearing stories, because as human beings, we love stories.

00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:26.310 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): impacted by stories we're going to remember stories more than just facts.

00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:42.000 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And it's I believe it's through those stories that were like really hearing them really being open to hearing them really wanting to hear them and know the stories of each other that we will move forward in a different way and he'll.

00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:45.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it's really interesting though because.

00:48:46.740 --> 00:48:48.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It I believe that.

00:48:49.680 --> 00:49:02.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This is the work that you've been doing for a long time, but it wasn't a recently and in the writing of your personal story that it seems like you're embracing it in a different way.

00:49:02.610 --> 00:49:14.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What what led to you finally saying hey wait a minute, this is my experience i'm not just teaching this, this is, I embody this what what was the thing that says yeah I want to tell my story.

00:49:15.180 --> 00:49:16.620 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know, a couple of things.

00:49:18.180 --> 00:49:29.820 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): it's no coincidence, I don't believe in coincidences that, at the same time as my child was growing up and coming into her own and exploring her experiences of racism and being racialized in North America.

00:49:30.210 --> 00:49:37.440 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): That I was also exploring my blackness and what it means to be racialized and what it means to be biracial it was a.

00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:53.280 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I firmly believe she showed up in my life to help me navigate that because, as soon as I landed in the boat and space and and stop feeling that pole i'm sorry there's a bond more now again as soon as I landed in that place she stopped talking about wanting to be white.

00:49:54.330 --> 00:49:55.380 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Like instantly.

00:49:56.070 --> 00:49:56.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, me.

00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:05.400 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Right and there's a beautiful quote in the book about that that she's that she wrote on her window right everyone's awesome in their own way, even if you're black and white, and I was like that should be or.

00:50:05.670 --> 00:50:06.900 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): But now I know she.

00:50:06.990 --> 00:50:08.370 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): was talking to me right.

00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:27.630 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So it, I have always done dni diversity inclusion work from the place of learning about bias understanding how we move to the world and how we're receiving the world is different, based on who we are and navigating understanding that lens right that critical component.

00:50:28.020 --> 00:50:28.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So hmm.

00:50:29.100 --> 00:50:38.730 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I never niched myself into a particular area of diversity, because my belief is, if you can understand how.

00:50:39.180 --> 00:50:47.310 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): bias works, and you can understand how your identity is related to bias and you can apply it to different right to different communities, but.

00:50:48.090 --> 00:51:03.450 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Something happened in you know around 2014 that I that required me to step into racial equity more fully, and I did that I started working with children's aid talking about disproportionality of black kids in in the tableau for system, yes.

00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:18.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, and see what is what's interesting is is that i've actually always come from the opposite perspective, a lot of the work that that an MRI and I do is very similar but I always came from the lens of grace partly.

00:51:18.870 --> 00:51:27.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because i'm black and I understand the experiences that happened for me in the USA, the experiences around.

00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:39.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Disparities in health and mass incarceration and the the school to prison pipeline, for me, I always came from that perspective of race, because I figured.

00:51:39.900 --> 00:51:46.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you can understand, race, then you can understand all the other biases.

00:51:47.460 --> 00:52:01.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I know that people are more comfortable talking about the other biases than they are talking about race, because as soon as you're talking about race people want to say Oh, but i'm not a racist so.

00:52:02.220 --> 00:52:14.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Racism doesn't require intent or malice right we don't know what we don't know we don't know when we say to people I don't see color that you're actually.

00:52:15.180 --> 00:52:25.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: devaluing them in that statement we don't know when we say to a black person you're so articulate that really it's offensive we don't know what we don't know.

00:52:25.830 --> 00:52:34.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so, for me, I think, is really crucial that we do pinpoint racism when we're talking about diversity and inclusion and.

00:52:35.640 --> 00:52:43.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are, thankfully, in a place where we're talking about it more, sadly, it was the result of a man being murdered.

00:52:44.670 --> 00:52:54.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it for the world to see, but we are talking about it more what i'm also noticing is we talked about it more in 2020 and it's slowly.

00:52:55.050 --> 00:53:02.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're not talking about it quite as much, and so I really want to encourage our listening audience today, please.

00:53:02.820 --> 00:53:14.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: find out more about people of color and our culture, learn more but take classes, there are people like emory who offers classes.

00:53:14.850 --> 00:53:21.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: People like myself, we offer these classes and we offer them so that you can have a greater perspective.

00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:34.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Of of making your business better by understanding the other but also if you're raising a child who is biracial or, if you are raising a child who is about another race.

00:53:35.040 --> 00:53:53.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It is very important to understand, so I am just so delighted and emory do you do have any other words that you want to say, I know, there was so much that we didn't cover but anything that you think is urgent for you to say about being brown in a black and white world.

00:53:55.290 --> 00:54:01.260 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): yeah one last thing I would like to say, you asked me how why I do this work, the way that I do and.

00:54:02.430 --> 00:54:07.980 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): It allows me to be all of who, I am as a biracial person to talk about both sides.

00:54:09.270 --> 00:54:19.200 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Right I become the bridge i'm light enough to not be too black for the white folks practice enough to not be too late for that, so I.

00:54:19.950 --> 00:54:28.920 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I have to talk about it from where I am how how else would I talk about it and it's so it's been really healing for me to land in this space and to feel like okay.

00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:40.350 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): This is how i'm going to do this work, this is the only way that I can do this work in an authentic way and and and navigate conversations and create openings for people like you to do the deeper work hmm.

00:54:40.860 --> 00:54:49.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well emery I just absolutely, thank you for sharing yourself, because I know that for those of us who do this work.

00:54:51.060 --> 00:54:57.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: When we are facilitating what people don't understand is the emotional toil it takes on us.

00:54:59.100 --> 00:55:16.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so emotional toll, excuse me that it, it takes on us to even be able to talk about this, and so you've talked a lot about your personal experiences today, so I want to thank you for just being open and vulnerable enough to do that tell people how they can get in touch with you.

00:55:18.090 --> 00:55:25.410 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): or they can get in touch with me through my website, which is andres router calm very, very easy to remember, if you remember my name.

00:55:26.160 --> 00:55:32.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right well so we'll have that information for them to be in touch with you, and they can pick up your book tell us again the name of your book.

00:55:33.120 --> 00:55:39.480 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Being Brown and black and white world conversations for leaders on race, racism and belonging available on Amazon and chapters indigo.

00:55:40.080 --> 00:55:50.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hey that is so great, and it is such a great great book, you will enjoy reading the stories but also is informational to help people on a personal.

00:55:50.730 --> 00:56:08.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And a professional level if you want to see more about the courses, I offer, please do go to sacred intelligence COM it'll tell you lots more about the work that I am doing we're going to close now with emory reading one of her poems from the book.

00:56:09.420 --> 00:56:29.940 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): hey, so this is called both it's at the end of the book if I let you name me as black, then I lose myself in all, I do not know about a people cultures that have given me my color if I discount what I do know the knowledge that comes with my melanin I make you and me invisible again.

00:56:31.020 --> 00:56:40.500 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): If I don't own my whiteness or you race you by my omissions and make spaces less safe this path is mine no roadmap.

00:56:41.100 --> 00:56:56.520 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): pain awareness and love will guide me and I will be a bridge strong trampled necessary leading us to a new place standing alone, not one or the other but part of both bridging the divide.

00:56:58.200 --> 00:57:09.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you so much amri and thank you listening audience will see you next time on dismantle racism with Reverend Dr tlc stay tuned for the conscious consultant hour with Sam leibowitz.

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