In 2014, Michael Brown, Jr. was murdered in Ferguson, Missouri by a police officer, Darren Wilson. Outrage over his murder rocked residents and outsiders alike. The city was flooded with protestors, and the world watched as violence erupted. A call for justice rang loud and clear. People across the nation poured in to support residents and serve as advocates for social justice. It was a moment when murder moved many to action. What has changed in Ferguson? What has changed in this country? What drives us to action? How do we become allies in the movement to dismantle racism?
Join Dismantle Racism with the Rev. Dr. TLC as she invites her guest, Rev. Julie Taylor to share her experience as an activist after Michael Brown, Jr. was murdered. Rev. Taylor specializes in critical incident response, community crisis and pastoral care. She will provide insights on allyship and ways to move beyond fear. Listen in for an insightful conversation.
Today's show opens with Rev Dr. Terrlyn reintroducing the show and today's guest. On today's show we invite Rev Julie Taylor to share her experience as an activist after Michael Brown, Jr. was murdered. Rev Julie Taylor specializes in critical incident response, community crisis and pastoral care. On today's show she will provide insight on allyship and ways to move beyond fear. After a short prayer from Rev Dr Terrlyn, she gives a short recap of Rev Julie Taylor’s background. This opens the conversation to how Rev julie Taylor’s religious theology affects her efforts in dismantling racism.
The second segment opens with the show coming back from break. Rev Dr Terrlyn opens the conversation by saying that there is a rush to get into social change. She says that while this mentality is on the right track, we must enact change in us first. Rev Julie Taylor discusses personal experiences in understanding your own “whiteness” and educating herself on dismantling racism. She mentions this is a crucial step before one can get into social change as a true activist. Rev Julie Taylor says that a strong spiritual change or connection is at the root of all her work and work moving forward.
The third segment opens with a conversation about how white people can be complicit. Rev Julie Taylor says that not understanding that just by being white, things may come to or happen differently in your life. She says that you must take the effort to understand that your white privilege is prevalent in every situation and white people must take the effort in knowing what they can control and what they can't. The things that white people can control, especially white people with power and influence, should start discussing their privilege openly. The conversation goes into Rev Julie Taylor’s experience being in st. Louis during the murder of Michael Brown, Jr. Rev Julie Taylor says that in her observation she was able to see the deep hurt while she was in the city of st. Louis up close.
The final segment starts with Rev Terrlyn asking Rev Julie Taylor if she predicts any change in the social climate regarding dismantling racism. Rev Julie Taylor says that we should have hope. Rev Julie Taylor says that she sees change and progress everyday, but we need to understand that there is much more work to be done. We need to ensure that this change keeps moving forward with what we are telling our younger generations. This includes media, entertainment, what's on the news, and every factset of their daily lives. The show ended with a message of hope and faith that both Reverends give to the audience. If we are going to stand up, we must know that we are not alone.
00:00:32.580 --> 00:00:39.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Welcome to dismantle racism, with the Reverend Dr tlc where our goal is to uncover.
00:00:40.380 --> 00:00:57.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: dismantle and eradicate racism and create a world where racial equity really is possible for everyone, I am your host the Reverend Dr tlc and today we are going to discuss when murder moves you igniting your inner activists.
00:00:58.080 --> 00:01:12.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, as usual, I want to begin today by simply inviting you to breathe to breathe in and to breathe out to breathe in the collective desire to change the world.
00:01:13.980 --> 00:01:18.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to breathe out hate hostility and ignorance.
00:01:20.430 --> 00:01:23.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in peace and commitments.
00:01:25.740 --> 00:01:28.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe out chaos and complacency.
00:01:30.510 --> 00:01:33.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in light and love for all.
00:01:35.370 --> 00:01:36.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and breathe out fear.
00:01:39.180 --> 00:01:45.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in the knowledge that you have everything that you need within you right now.
00:01:46.980 --> 00:01:52.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To be the change that you actually want to see in the world.
00:01:54.450 --> 00:01:55.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: take a deep breath in.
00:01:57.570 --> 00:01:58.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe out.
00:02:00.210 --> 00:02:02.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then do a collective sigh.
00:02:07.050 --> 00:02:09.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: My guest today.
00:02:10.410 --> 00:02:13.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is a self described agitator.
00:02:14.430 --> 00:02:24.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and makes a distinction between being an activist and an agitator so maybe today we're going to talk about igniting your inner agitator.
00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:38.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I love this word because Frederick douglass one said, those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation are people who want crops, without plowing the ground.
00:02:39.090 --> 00:02:54.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They want rain without thunder and lightning they want the ocean without the war of its many waters, the struggle, may be a moral one or it may be a physical one or it may be both, but it must be a struggle.
00:02:55.380 --> 00:03:09.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Power concedes nothing without a demand it never did, and it never will so his words of advice to us are to agitate agitate agitated.
00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:18.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I am delighted to have such an agitator on the show with me today with me today is the Reverend Julie Taylor.
00:03:19.530 --> 00:03:32.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Reverend Julie Taylor Taylor is a unitarian tyrion universalist Minister specializing in critical incident response Community crisis and pastoral care.
00:03:32.550 --> 00:03:38.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Julie, is the senior director of contextual ministry and an affiliate professor of meadville.
00:03:39.480 --> 00:03:57.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Lombard Theological School in Chicago an ordained Minister since 2001 Julie has served you you congregations in New York City and St Louis as well as volunteered with multiple crisis and disaster response organizations.
00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:15.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: agitating preaching and working towards dismantling systems of white supremacy, are key in julie's theology and work Julie welcome today to my show i'm so grateful for you and for you being here today.
00:04:16.110 --> 00:04:23.880 Rev Julie Taylor: Oh well, thank you for the invitation i've been so excited for this conversation, and I just can't wait i'm so looking forward to talk to you about.
00:04:24.030 --> 00:04:33.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I know I am ready to to dig into this conversation and really Julie, the place, I would love to start today with our listening audience is.
00:04:34.110 --> 00:04:53.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean about dismantling systems of white supremacy being key in your theology, because I know with unitarians in general that your mission is all about dismantling these systems, but talk to me about your theology or bad yes.
00:04:54.120 --> 00:05:07.200 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, and connected, I think, is unitarian universalism gets shorthand off and just a unitarian, but these are two traditions two traditions that came with different theologies that unitarian side around.
00:05:08.640 --> 00:05:10.530 Rev Julie Taylor: The unity of God and then.
00:05:11.610 --> 00:05:16.530 Rev Julie Taylor: Being one God, rather than than a trinity and but the universalist side had to do with universal salvation.
00:05:17.010 --> 00:05:23.250 Rev Julie Taylor: That all, no one can be separated from God that there's nothing that we can do.
00:05:23.970 --> 00:05:36.060 Rev Julie Taylor: To be separated from the love of God, so this one God no hell, essentially, as the shorthand for the unitarian universalist and the universalist side, I think, really is a big part of the driving for me around my theology.
00:05:36.300 --> 00:05:37.230 Rev Julie Taylor: In connecting to.
00:05:37.290 --> 00:05:39.990 Rev Julie Taylor: The dismantling of of white supremacy so.
00:05:41.280 --> 00:05:47.280 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, I want to step back a little bit, and this will be a little unitarian universalist or you you in short.
00:05:49.110 --> 00:05:52.950 Rev Julie Taylor: background for those that maybe aren't familiar with us and.
00:05:54.540 --> 00:06:02.760 Rev Julie Taylor: We have principles and we're we're a covenant total faith we don't have a creed that everyone here's two or has to agree on.
00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:14.430 Rev Julie Taylor: we're covenants also we agreed to behave in particular ways within Community so we're also relational and currently we have seven principles and we're working on adding an eight right now.
00:06:14.940 --> 00:06:24.750 Rev Julie Taylor: The set the so the seventh principle, and this is the one that kind of gets me going on, this is the respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are apart.
00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:37.200 Rev Julie Taylor: So this idea that there is, we are all connected there's no there's nothing that can't happen over there that happens to you that's not going to connect to me there's nothing that I do that's it's all part of this.
00:06:37.410 --> 00:06:38.550 Rev Julie Taylor: So that's the first place, we.
00:06:38.550 --> 00:06:39.720 Rev Julie Taylor: start, and when I started.
00:06:40.830 --> 00:06:48.690 Rev Julie Taylor: really doing my own work, and my own theological and my own deepening and my all of the spiritual work that was doing.
00:06:50.880 --> 00:07:04.170 Rev Julie Taylor: It really became clear for me that that white supremacy is also an interdependent web that I that lays on top of the interdependent web of all life, of which we.
00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:07.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: know how did you come to that, to.
00:07:09.210 --> 00:07:13.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: me I get it, but but that's a lot of introspection.
00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:14.310 there's.
00:07:16.110 --> 00:07:17.910 Rev Julie Taylor: You know, some of it comes from.
00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:26.490 Rev Julie Taylor: Some of it comes from, you know from reading from being in conversation being relationship and also being engaged in the world and and.
00:07:26.880 --> 00:07:31.110 Rev Julie Taylor: paying attention to what's happening at just at some point that image came up and I went wait a second.
00:07:31.950 --> 00:07:51.090 Rev Julie Taylor: The white supremacy is also this interdependent web that is connected to everything but it's not the same thing as the interdependent web of life it's laying on top of the web of life, which means that that makes it really hard to pull apart things that we exist on top of.
00:07:51.330 --> 00:07:51.480 What.
00:07:52.530 --> 00:08:04.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I like so, so this is probably nothing that you and I even talked about beforehand, but now it's really interesting to get into this, because one of the things that I find particularly if we're talking about.
00:08:06.780 --> 00:08:13.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Religion, for instance, and you've identified white supremacy is being an overlay of.
00:08:15.090 --> 00:08:24.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What we deal with from a religious perspective or spiritual perspective, all of that talk to me about how folks who are deeply engaged in religion.
00:08:25.110 --> 00:08:41.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And theology how they can come to this place where you are with with understanding how whites I know it's a tough question, but I find it particularly if we're going to be blunt terrifying that folks have used the Bible.
00:08:41.790 --> 00:08:42.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In a way to.
00:08:42.630 --> 00:08:50.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: continue to dis to to oppressed oppressed people and then folks are often fearful and by folks I mean white folks.
00:08:50.250 --> 00:09:01.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: are often fearful with addressing this issue of racism, but you're you're saying is so interwoven, how can we address it, is what I hear you say.
00:09:01.380 --> 00:09:10.320 Rev Julie Taylor: I bought, yes, so I think it is so interwoven that we must address that, how could we not, and yet it's so interwoven for white people.
00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:13.470 Rev Julie Taylor: It means that we can pretend that it's not there.
00:09:14.700 --> 00:09:26.820 Rev Julie Taylor: right we don't we if we if we're not if we don't force ourselves or if we're not forced to write just right in Frederick douglass nothing's going to happen nothing's going to happen without being pushed nothing is going to change right.
00:09:27.450 --> 00:09:27.750 Rev Julie Taylor: So.
00:09:27.900 --> 00:09:33.600 Rev Julie Taylor: Why people have to my experience around this and certainly reading.
00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:45.330 Rev Julie Taylor: Again experience watching what's happening if white people aren't pushed on this if we don't push ourselves on it, we can ignore that top layer and just pretend no.
00:09:45.420 --> 00:09:46.680 Rev Julie Taylor: This is just a slayer.
00:09:46.920 --> 00:09:59.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so that's something that often happens, and what I love about this discussion is is that you started from this perspective, have you you a rate and what your principles are.
00:10:00.390 --> 00:10:10.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So supposedly other religious groups Christians have principles that they are guided by as well, and what what I heard you say was I looked at our principles.
00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:28.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I also did my own deep work on it that opened you up a bit, and I find that sometimes a couple of things and i'm will be having a couple of pastors on later on in in the season here who white pastors talking about.
00:10:29.760 --> 00:10:38.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Actually, the failure of white pastors to really discuss racism in church because folks want to go to church and they want to feel good when they.
00:10:38.670 --> 00:10:39.240 Rev Julie Taylor: want right.
00:10:39.510 --> 00:10:55.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It really don't want to deal with the principles that they say that they believe in, well, it sounds like to me that from your work, your work on yourself, first of all, and your understanding of who you are as a spiritual being.
00:10:56.070 --> 00:10:56.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: isn't what.
00:10:56.610 --> 00:11:02.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: guides your theology, and what opened you up yes study.
00:11:02.640 --> 00:11:09.330 Rev Julie Taylor: Yes, it's a place for strength it's a place for vulnerability it's a place for growth it's a place for shelter it's all it has to be all those.
00:11:09.810 --> 00:11:18.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Were you afraid at first when you started to explore this to allow yourself to go there to say where, am I going to uncover.
00:11:19.770 --> 00:11:23.250 Rev Julie Taylor: Yes, yes, and part of it is.
00:11:24.630 --> 00:11:33.180 Rev Julie Taylor: Because I know what is likely to be there right so so i'm going to give a little secret here right i'll give a little secret.
00:11:33.810 --> 00:11:36.600 Rev Julie Taylor: i've been planning to preach on it, I haven't figured out how to do it so i'm now going to.
00:11:37.110 --> 00:11:42.090 Rev Julie Taylor: Somebody else will probably preach on it better than ever could so it probably belong somewhere else you know the old, you know that there's a.
00:11:42.510 --> 00:11:52.080 Rev Julie Taylor: children's story from when I was a kid one of those little golden books and it's a sesame street one it's grover and it's the monster at the end of this book here that story.
00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:54.060 Rev Julie Taylor: I didn't oh.
00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:54.960 Rev Julie Taylor: Okay.
00:11:55.350 --> 00:12:01.620 Rev Julie Taylor: The monster at the end of this week so grover and each page says there's a monster at the end of this book let's build a wall don't turn the page.
00:12:01.680 --> 00:12:07.260 Rev Julie Taylor: And he's talking to the reader don't turn the page because there's a monster at the end of this book that's the title of the book there's a monster.
00:12:07.680 --> 00:12:15.780 Rev Julie Taylor: And you turn the page that is as you're really strong don't turn the page and they keep saying don't turn the page don't turn the page, but of course as a little kid you're like to the page turn the page.
00:12:16.350 --> 00:12:19.530 Rev Julie Taylor: And you get to the end and the monster at the end of the book is him.
00:12:20.250 --> 00:12:33.000 Rev Julie Taylor: he's a monster and he's been afraid of himself, he didn't know that he was going to find himself as being the monster at the end of the book and he goes Oh, the monsters me lovable grover so I that book for me is about like white people that.
00:12:33.270 --> 00:12:34.740 Rev Julie Taylor: We have a monster at the end of this.
00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:43.200 Rev Julie Taylor: Book now, what are we going to do about it when we turn to the page and go it's me, I am lovable me and i'm still the monster at the end of this book part.
00:12:43.950 --> 00:12:50.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is I have like chills right now I can't i'm ready for you to preach that sermon why.
00:12:50.730 --> 00:12:51.060 Did.
00:12:53.700 --> 00:13:05.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You did I really and truly have chills right now and and and I don't know if it'll play around in my head I love what you just said, though.
00:13:05.640 --> 00:13:16.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is the both and it's not an either or that we can be lovable, but we can also still be monsters and a part of what happens when I do the work that I do on.
00:13:17.040 --> 00:13:26.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Dismantling racism in my programs is that people like but i'm a good person i'm a good person how authentically here i'm a good person that's right.
00:13:26.520 --> 00:13:38.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We can be a good person, and we can also manifest behaviors within us that we need to get rid of, and if we don't become conscious of those things like you've done.
00:13:39.870 --> 00:13:47.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Then we don't work on those things, and that doesn't mean that we get to this place where we're perfect, it just means that we continue to work on.
00:13:47.760 --> 00:14:00.810 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, and you know we'll talk about this in the next segment, I know, one of my one of my dear friends, and one of my accountability buddies he always says as white people we're never going to do no harm my goal always has to be how can I do less harm.
00:14:01.380 --> 00:14:02.700 Rev Julie Taylor: And I do less harm.
00:14:03.150 --> 00:14:17.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: wow wow well you know what that's a good place for us to take a break, we are going to be right back with the Reverend Julie Taylor this is dismantle racism, with the Reverend Dr tlc and we'll be right back.
00:16:45.900 --> 00:16:55.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with dismantle racism, with the Reverend Dr tlc and today's guest Reverend Julie Taylor right before the break.
00:16:55.500 --> 00:17:12.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We were really talking about the personal work that you've done spiritually to engage in this work of really dismantling white supremacy in all of its forms, and one of the things that I find particularly.
00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:25.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Over the last year year and a half, I would say is that people want to just rush to jump in to become an agitator or feel like they're ready to.
00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:33.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: become a part of dismantling racism, and of course I would love that that everybody could just jump in and be ready to go.
00:17:34.830 --> 00:17:42.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But one of the things I really talk a lot about this, the self transformation, the work that you must do.
00:17:42.780 --> 00:17:53.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So you talked before the break about the spiritual work that you were doing like when you began your spiritual journey, maybe to become a minister at some point.
00:17:53.850 --> 00:18:09.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You also had to dig a little bit deeper talk to us a little bit more about some of the other personal work that you might have have had to do yourself around your own white supremacy or to do no harm, as you said right before the break.
00:18:11.760 --> 00:18:13.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you're muted actually so.
00:18:13.590 --> 00:18:26.100 Rev Julie Taylor: Take a look yep gotcha or less harm as a white person right last time I can I can do, I can do less work to do less on well, I think, for me, it's my journey goes in a lot of different directions.
00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:32.850 Rev Julie Taylor: As a white person, I think the one of the initial things is to recognize difference.
00:18:34.230 --> 00:18:37.020 Rev Julie Taylor: I have been conditioned.
00:18:38.490 --> 00:18:54.420 Rev Julie Taylor: Certainly, as a white person in this country at a particular time growing up in the 70s and 80s to minimize difference to say hey listen we're all human beings we're all people here, and so, and for white people that.
00:18:55.500 --> 00:19:00.900 Rev Julie Taylor: Really winds up being unconsciously, you know every everybody is just like us right, we all have.
00:19:00.990 --> 00:19:04.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We all start from the same place exactly exactly yes.
00:19:04.470 --> 00:19:05.460 Rev Julie Taylor: And, and so.
00:19:06.540 --> 00:19:14.310 Rev Julie Taylor: You know I had an argument with a family member now going back 2014 2015 somewhere in there and who said.
00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:21.360 Rev Julie Taylor: who comes from a much more conservative theological shall I say conservative theological background that idea.
00:19:21.990 --> 00:19:35.520 Rev Julie Taylor: Who said well you know what you're doing what you're doing is is just causing more problems because God created us all and we're God created us all equal and I just wrote back and said that's true but we don't treat each other as equals so that's what we got to deal with.
00:19:36.120 --> 00:19:38.430 Rev Julie Taylor: we're dealing with each other and now we're doing this right.
00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:46.560 Rev Julie Taylor: And we treat each there's there are differences in the systems there's differences how it's unconscious for white folks it's certainly unconscious.
00:19:47.010 --> 00:19:52.920 Rev Julie Taylor: I would say in this country and I yeah i'm going to make that generalization and make that generalization because we are.
00:19:53.910 --> 00:20:01.140 Rev Julie Taylor: were brought up to not even recognize ourselves as a race and i'm not the first person to say that i'm not the first person to that, as a young child I had.
00:20:02.010 --> 00:20:13.380 Rev Julie Taylor: Some understanding of myself as being white based on just some experiences that I had, and that has that has never left me that was always there I didn't know what it meant or how to put things together around that.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:24.840 Rev Julie Taylor: Later I would I would, but I think that very initial early experience that seed that was planted was part of allowing me to.
00:20:25.350 --> 00:20:34.050 Rev Julie Taylor: make some big shifts when when they did, and so I think part of this is education right, and I know like with my tradition and and with others.
00:20:34.710 --> 00:20:45.150 Rev Julie Taylor: I think, even just the bigger world, a lot of white people liberal progressive white people that want to see this change have been thinking about how do we educate about dismantling racism for.
00:20:46.560 --> 00:20:55.350 Rev Julie Taylor: You know, a long time 5060 years, how do we an education is all if we know more, will be able to change it if we just think about it more will be able to change it.
00:20:55.800 --> 00:21:07.050 Rev Julie Taylor: And I think there's there is a partners and important part that education plays, but you mentioned the word already, just as we started the segment education alone I don't believe is transformative.
00:21:07.560 --> 00:21:13.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It absolutely not because I just want to pause you for a second because you just said something.
00:21:13.560 --> 00:21:23.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Really really important you first got to recognize that that you're white and that white is the backdrop of every single thing that we do that white is the standard.
00:21:23.850 --> 00:21:36.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it was so beautifully said how you said, well, we don't recognize ourselves as a race I can't tell you how many times when i've been doing, training, if I ask people what are some of the characteristics of being white.
00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:54.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They don't know they can tell you what it means to be black or Latino or all these other things because it's the other and so that it's part of the waking up and the consciousness and doing the work and so so tell me a little bit more about what you did to engage in this process.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:22:05.370 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, and it's it's take it's been over a number of years, I do want to say though right before we move on to bucks for this so that education being an important piece of it but that's not transformative.
00:22:05.820 --> 00:22:14.850 Rev Julie Taylor: it's the I believe that you know this racism white supremacy is a spiritual disease and so it's going to it requires that spiritual work for the transformation.
00:22:15.060 --> 00:22:21.030 Rev Julie Taylor: Education has a piece right there's a lot of pieces, but without that I don't know that the transformation happens at.
00:22:21.360 --> 00:22:31.890 Rev Julie Taylor: least that's my take on it, however, people determine spirituality and religion, however, they figure, how to make meaning and how their life is going to make, meaning that that's the piece that's key, I think.
00:22:32.730 --> 00:22:40.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I have to prep for a second, because if you were in some church traditions right now i'd be saying Julie, you better preach.
00:22:40.230 --> 00:22:40.470 Right.
00:22:41.670 --> 00:23:00.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you're really speaking my language, and I and and speaking words that are really powerful because, to say that it this really takes a spiritual transformation is really a spiritual disease is what racism is is just really, really powerful so continue, though with what you're.
00:23:00.150 --> 00:23:00.480 Saying.
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:02.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because.
00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:16.050 Rev Julie Taylor: Honestly right there are smart people have been working on this, a long time if we could have thought, our way out of this somebody would have figured out how to think about it, because really good into i'm not disparaging intimate if that was if that was all it took.
00:23:16.620 --> 00:23:18.780 Rev Julie Taylor: I think we would have been there it's more than.
00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:19.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That it.
00:23:19.230 --> 00:23:19.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: was one.
00:23:20.130 --> 00:23:21.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Air to do.
00:23:21.270 --> 00:23:23.370 Rev Julie Taylor: The personal work yeah.
00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:24.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, it is scary.
00:23:25.320 --> 00:23:31.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah, of course, talk to me about some of your fears because you've been it like you said you've been at this a long time.
00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:33.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So well your fears.
00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:39.660 Rev Julie Taylor: You know, as long as you know that I mean the fears of again of recognizing my complicity.
00:23:40.050 --> 00:23:55.740 Rev Julie Taylor: And having to own up to where I do where that we're privileged has does come to me, without me recognizing and I come from, pretty poor background and that that figuring out that gap of yeah but yeah but.
00:23:55.950 --> 00:23:56.460 Rev Julie Taylor: yeah but.
00:23:56.520 --> 00:23:57.390 Rev Julie Taylor: yeah I know.
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:00.750 Rev Julie Taylor: I know what government cheese tastes like right, I know what this is.
00:24:00.840 --> 00:24:06.390 Rev Julie Taylor: yeah I don't have privilege right that piece oh wait a minute that's true and.
00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:21.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, Julie, I love that because that's one of the things that I have to battle, sometimes in trainings like, no, no, I was for it, and I said yes, but it anytime you put on different clothing and you walk into a space.
00:24:23.010 --> 00:24:25.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: they're not going to judge you based on the color of your skin.
00:24:25.830 --> 00:24:30.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Now I will also say this, and this was something that that he a white friend.
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:39.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Actually taught me or you know I hadn't really thought about it from this perspective, so I know that poor white people are treated horribly.
00:24:40.260 --> 00:24:56.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In this country horribly and I know that there's a name that folks call for white folks and what she schooled me on was she said I hate the name and forgive me for using it, but for the context of this she said I hate the name poor white trash.
00:24:58.230 --> 00:25:02.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She said, because in that is already racism because you're assume.
00:25:02.760 --> 00:25:03.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That everybody else.
00:25:04.020 --> 00:25:18.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is trash and that you're the worst of worse because you're poor and your way and you shouldn't be and so she even made me to just think about the racism of the word itself.
00:25:18.930 --> 00:25:29.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah, and so I do get what you're saying there has to be this distinction and folks have to realize that first of all there's no hierarchy on on.
00:25:30.570 --> 00:25:45.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oppression so when we talk about racism, it does not mean that other groups of people don't experience oppression, it just means that we need to deal with the racism and also the intersection ality of that as well.
00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:53.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know I want to just talk about something and I know that there was a lot more that you could say around that personal transformation, but, but I want to make sure that we get into this.
00:25:54.330 --> 00:26:07.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You have been doing this work of crisis intervention now for about 20 years or so, and in our conversation before the show you told me that when trayvon Martin was murdered.
00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:23.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That you had an awakening around the crisis responses and intervention that you do that, you had this awakening where your lens really open up and you were able to see the trauma that was associated with.
00:26:24.810 --> 00:26:28.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Really, the murder of trayvon Martin was.
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:36.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: very similar to the work that you do around disaster can you talk a little bit about that.
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:47.520 Rev Julie Taylor: A little bit some of it was unconscious and it just a shift happened and and I recognize the shift that happened, so I don't know that I have a lot of details about what went into it, except that I think.
00:26:48.900 --> 00:26:56.400 Rev Julie Taylor: It takes what it takes right all the things that came up to Where, finally, that that shift, so you know, I was in New York City for 25 years.
00:26:56.970 --> 00:27:05.820 Rev Julie Taylor: Sean bell was murdered right Amadou Diallo like there was all sorts of things that happened, but for some reason yeah when trayvon Martin was murdered.
00:27:06.330 --> 00:27:20.520 Rev Julie Taylor: I i've been doing crisis intervention work at that point well since 2001 I was a chaplain on site at World Trade Center and spent six months doing shifts there and had since done, I mean i'm a national subject matter expert on crisis intervention and spiritual care.
00:27:21.870 --> 00:27:40.380 Rev Julie Taylor: There was something about that particular response in the way that all of a sudden, I went yeah that my lens kind of opened and fine tuned at the same time, and when I there are so many pieces around, let me and it just kind of hit and came into really clear focus that.
00:27:42.060 --> 00:27:54.210 Rev Julie Taylor: The work that i've been doing here helped me not understand but get a clear focus and what was happening and allowed me to focus in and go I need to start naming things I need to start talking about this, and so.
00:27:54.630 --> 00:28:04.200 Rev Julie Taylor: On I think it was march end of March 25 26th 2012 in New York, there was a call out for people to wear a hoodie when you preach.
00:28:04.620 --> 00:28:21.870 Rev Julie Taylor: Yes, and so I I was supposed to already be in the pulpit I was pregnant at the time, my son was I didn't know we didn't know we have a son, but he was going to be born in about a month and a half, it was really pregnant and preaching in a hoodie and a robe haha.
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:28.350 Rev Julie Taylor: I had the hood and under you know, had the hood up over.
00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:34.290 Rev Julie Taylor: With my road right and my best mates and I preached and it was the sermon was called wearing the hoodie.
00:28:34.950 --> 00:28:35.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I.
00:28:35.910 --> 00:28:44.550 Rev Julie Taylor: You know, so the night before and to throw away the old sermon and write this one and really you know some of what I talked about, as I named myself as being racist.
00:28:44.850 --> 00:28:46.080 Rev Julie Taylor: Not intentionally.
00:28:46.230 --> 00:28:55.860 Rev Julie Taylor: Not wanting to be, but this unconscious and I have to say this out loud I also talked about we didn't again we knew we were having a white child, so I had to name.
00:28:56.850 --> 00:29:07.410 Rev Julie Taylor: What what do I, what do I have to do now, so that I can lessen the amount of unconscious racism and white supremacy that I will unknowingly give and bring.
00:29:07.890 --> 00:29:17.820 Rev Julie Taylor: upon this white child that i'm about to bring in the world that we're about to raise and how do we start, how do we start intervening in that and and the way to do it is, we need to be.
00:29:18.390 --> 00:29:24.000 Rev Julie Taylor: willing to be bold and be uncomfortable as white people be uncomfortable.
00:29:24.750 --> 00:29:38.970 Rev Julie Taylor: Do the work that we have to do, because the only way this changes is if I make my changes and I then start finding out where those changes can reverberate within within my whatever I have control over for me it's me it's my kids it's the little circles that i'm in.
00:29:39.450 --> 00:29:46.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I love it now, we do have to take a break, but when we come back, I want to talk just for a bit because you've mentioned that several times.
00:29:46.860 --> 00:29:58.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A complicity and ways in which you show up and some people out there might be saying well I don't know how am I, being racist right what are some ways that i'm complicit So if you could give some examples of that when we come back.
00:29:58.590 --> 00:30:08.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I would really, really appreciate it we're going to take a quick break this is dismantle racism with Reverend Dr tlc and my guest today Reverend Julie Taylor we'll be right back.
00:30:10.020 --> 00:30:13.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you're listening to talk radio nyc.
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:16.170 and
00:32:56.310 --> 00:33:06.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with dismantle racism with Reverend Dr tlc my guest today Reverend Julie Taylor is a crisis response.
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:15.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: agitator really and we were just talking right before the break about some ways in which white people are complicit.
00:33:16.410 --> 00:33:25.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with racism, and I would love for you to just share a few examples for those listeners, who are out there saying I don't get it, I don't understand what do you mean by that.
00:33:26.760 --> 00:33:33.000 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, some things we have control over and don't realize we do and some things we don't have control right, one of the ways that were complicit.
00:33:33.810 --> 00:33:40.020 Rev Julie Taylor: In that we don't have control over is things like when I bought my house when we bought our House, knowing that we're going to automatically.
00:33:40.530 --> 00:33:51.870 Rev Julie Taylor: be offered different lines of credit different terms that are our credit is different that's one of the things that I don't have any control over but i'm that's that do less harm I can't do no harm because I can't do anything about that one.
00:33:52.950 --> 00:34:04.140 Rev Julie Taylor: At the moment at least, I don't know how I would do anything about that that but so less harm, where I can do something so that would be one example that just by me being white other things come to me.
00:34:06.390 --> 00:34:08.340 Rev Julie Taylor: other ways to be complicit is.
00:34:09.510 --> 00:34:18.750 Rev Julie Taylor: being afraid to speak up when you know that you need to because you don't know if you're going to lose a friend, or you don't know if you're going to be embarrassed or maybe.
00:34:20.010 --> 00:34:25.560 Rev Julie Taylor: You don't know what to say or that you don't want to make things worse, and so you don't say anything when you know you should.
00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:27.960 Rev Julie Taylor: That would be one I would.
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:29.460 Rev Julie Taylor: Say for people who want to.
00:34:29.640 --> 00:34:30.060 Rev Julie Taylor: You know.
00:34:30.720 --> 00:34:34.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So how do you help people to move beyond.
00:34:35.580 --> 00:34:36.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That fear.
00:34:37.710 --> 00:34:42.570 Rev Julie Taylor: So one of the ways I think it's important some of the things that we need as and again i'm only going to.
00:34:43.290 --> 00:34:48.480 Rev Julie Taylor: I hope it's been clear i'm only speaking as a white person really more to the two white folks in this.
00:34:49.200 --> 00:35:01.110 Rev Julie Taylor: I think it's important for us to have our own accountability groups, but the and some of them need to be Caucus base, they should be white base and wherever your relationships are, then, then you you learn where that.
00:35:01.350 --> 00:35:08.490 Rev Julie Taylor: can work and not just be specific within Caucus white space, but I think that's important to test things out to practice things there.
00:35:08.850 --> 00:35:09.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, like.
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:20.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The irony of this is, I think that's so so great that like we fought to get rid of, like the white only groups, but this is a place where you need to have a light only group.
00:35:20.070 --> 00:35:26.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right it's in spaces, where we need to be able to process yeah the things that.
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:28.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right relevant for us.
00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:32.820 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, and there's a difference between segregated and segregated space and caucusing space.
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:33.630 Rev Julie Taylor: Yes.
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:39.180 Rev Julie Taylor: And that's a really important distinction just because they look the same doesn't mean that that's the intention, I think that's important.
00:35:39.630 --> 00:35:42.510 Rev Julie Taylor: So, and then there's there's other things that we can do I want to lift up.
00:35:43.200 --> 00:35:55.290 Rev Julie Taylor: connected to the school where I teach me the lumbar Theological School there's the foss collaborative and I can share this link here later there's actually work that they do that anybody can be a part of called beloved conversations.
00:35:55.350 --> 00:36:03.060 Rev Julie Taylor: Yes, and if you know that glove of conversations that work that happens, both within a mixed group but also caucusing group to be able to.
00:36:04.140 --> 00:36:15.480 Rev Julie Taylor: practice and work on well what would that be, what is it that i'm afraid of what is it Okay, how can I take my little steps or make my little move have my little conversation in all the different ways that could be.
00:36:16.650 --> 00:36:27.780 Rev Julie Taylor: We have to start within a little bit of a safe space to work into more uncomfortable that then can work into bold yeah in addition to doing the spiritual work that girds us to be able to do all those pieces.
00:36:28.140 --> 00:36:38.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm so I want to ask you, because I want to make sure that we talked about this, so I know that you were in St Louis during the time that Michael Brown.
00:36:38.430 --> 00:36:56.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: was murdered i'd like you, if you could just talk a little bit about your experience during that time, and what it was like for you as a crisis responder also as an agitator during that time their pictures of you at at at marches so.
00:36:57.630 --> 00:37:08.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and not every person will be out in marching and not every person will be an agitator in the way that you are but i'd love to hear what some of your experiences were.
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:15.420 Rev Julie Taylor: yeah so we did move from New York City to St Louis in 2012.
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:22.350 Rev Julie Taylor: The end of August 2012 so we had and had a brand new brand new little one at that point so.
00:37:23.580 --> 00:37:26.370 Rev Julie Taylor: When August of 2014 rolled around.
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:42.720 Rev Julie Taylor: We were still pretty new I had not made you know with a with a brand new baby I hadn't made a whole lot of new friends and hadn't really been part of the Community, my relationships were not super wide at that point, but I was connected.
00:37:43.740 --> 00:37:57.660 Rev Julie Taylor: Through where my where my wife was employed, I was connected to at the Center of the EDEN seminary that was connected to a number it's one of those things were.
00:37:59.010 --> 00:38:02.040 Rev Julie Taylor: being connected to one person winds you finding out.
00:38:02.160 --> 00:38:09.150 Rev Julie Taylor: Right eating and so right and because of the nature of the work that i've been doing so long with crisis intervention when my when Mike was killed.
00:38:09.630 --> 00:38:19.800 Rev Julie Taylor: All of a sudden, a number of of ministers had come together and they actually went to the campus to meet is a lot of them were alum Tracy black men and.
00:38:21.660 --> 00:38:31.830 Rev Julie Taylor: Susan tavi was his the rabbi there, and I mean just a whole bunch of people there, but seven eight people that that met and I got invited because of the crisis work.
00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:41.190 Rev Julie Taylor: By the by the Dean, to say hey This seems like it's a crisis, maybe, and I was very smart enough to know to go to that meeting and shut up because i'm not from that i'm not from that community.
00:38:41.580 --> 00:38:42.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah yeah.
00:38:42.570 --> 00:38:47.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm not from that can I, I want to just pause there for a second, because I think it's so important for you.
00:38:47.190 --> 00:38:53.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To say to to to know when to be quiet and just to listen, because often what happens is is that.
00:38:53.220 --> 00:38:59.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: People come in and they want to do all the talking because they think they know how to do X y&z and you clearly have.
00:39:00.120 --> 00:39:11.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Experience in crisis response so you know how to do that, but you said, in this case I need to listen, I don't need to show up and be because that's a privilege thing to that happens that's right yeah so.
00:39:11.640 --> 00:39:13.830 Rev Julie Taylor: yeah I mean I had experienced running like.
00:39:14.250 --> 00:39:27.600 Rev Julie Taylor: pieces from national type like stuff and it was real clear that I don't know this town and I don't know these relationships and they don't know me and the only thing for me to do, I mean I kind of borrowed.
00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:37.500 Rev Julie Taylor: The credibility because it was given to me by being invited by a person that they respected to come to this meeting, you know starsky wilson's different ones that were there, and so, but I listened and.
00:39:38.220 --> 00:39:41.280 Rev Julie Taylor: What wound up initial my initial piece was right away.
00:39:41.730 --> 00:39:49.080 Rev Julie Taylor: This we need we need ministers in Canada at the Capitol apartments right there and canfield because there's food being distributed, because you know.
00:39:49.350 --> 00:39:59.400 Rev Julie Taylor: They the city shut down the route to be able to purposes to go through the street Main Street fluorescent was for us it was shut down so people couldn't get to work.
00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:08.340 Rev Julie Taylor: Buses one working school got postponed people needed food they needed diapers they they needed stuff so there was handing out of a food know.
00:40:08.700 --> 00:40:16.680 Rev Julie Taylor: So they needed ministers well that's kind of what I do is show up in crisis situations and I, you know what people, so I was, like all right put me on the list, and so I started.
00:40:17.130 --> 00:40:25.080 Rev Julie Taylor: That within the first couple of days, I was there during the during the daytime shifts talking with people, but right it's not like.
00:40:25.950 --> 00:40:36.390 Rev Julie Taylor: That kind of work for a minister is not like i'm going to sit we're not gonna have a Bible study we're not going to sit down, maybe there's a little prayer but you know what it is it's putting toilet paper into bags and handed it to people.
00:40:38.010 --> 00:40:48.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To do but here's here's The other thing is it showing up and doing what you can do in the moment and that's part of what dismantling racism is about.
00:40:48.630 --> 00:40:52.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: saying I go but going back to what you said about being interconnected.
00:40:53.430 --> 00:41:01.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is that we are all interconnected and i'm not going to look out and say oh look at what's happening to those four people over there i'm going to be.
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:16.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A part of it and i'm sure tensions were high as matter of fact, I know they were high during that time there might have been a sense of fear and danger during that time there was a lot of lot going on with the Community versus Lisa all of that.
00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:19.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah so tell me tell me more about.
00:41:20.460 --> 00:41:21.090 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, so.
00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:33.120 Rev Julie Taylor: The day times going out, and you know with the food and all that it's but it's also important right as a minister and as as a white minister to again just to be there, holding that space.
00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:38.310 Rev Julie Taylor: As part of as part of the Community, rather than.
00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:48.750 Rev Julie Taylor: As part of that helping and serving Community rather than some other place at any rate, so that was the daytime and then reverence a coup who people.
00:41:49.590 --> 00:41:57.240 Rev Julie Taylor: A lot of people know we were we were at seminary together, he gave me a call he's from St Louis he came across it i'm coming in, I need a ride from the airport and I went and picked him up.
00:41:57.660 --> 00:42:00.180 Rev Julie Taylor: And that, after that first night there he called me and he said.
00:42:00.720 --> 00:42:09.660 Rev Julie Taylor: You got to come out at night it's messed up here at night and it's different, and so, then I went at night with again within the first me three four days and that's when the tanks came out.
00:42:10.350 --> 00:42:16.470 Rev Julie Taylor: That weren't real tight right that's where they're definitely they're not takes but that's when things shifted and that's when.
00:42:17.580 --> 00:42:19.020 Rev Julie Taylor: I found myself.
00:42:20.190 --> 00:42:29.970 Rev Julie Taylor: Working with whoever was there was Sekou and seiko and I just worked through went through the crowd and were there as protesters, but also as.
00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:33.540 Rev Julie Taylor: As a spiritual presence.
00:42:34.020 --> 00:42:35.220 Rev Julie Taylor: In those moments.
00:42:35.610 --> 00:42:36.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm.
00:42:36.810 --> 00:42:44.850 Rev Julie Taylor: As part of right, so I would call myself like i'm not at we talked about this nun activist and organizer but i've been a protester i'm an agitator.
00:42:45.270 --> 00:42:55.530 Rev Julie Taylor: And in those moments as a spiritual leader saying no i'm walking with these people, because what happened is not right, and this is morning that first week it was about.
00:42:55.950 --> 00:43:02.880 Rev Julie Taylor: The Community morning and needing a place to mourn and and the authorities saying you're not not here you can't mourn.
00:43:03.120 --> 00:43:11.460 Rev Julie Taylor: and saying no we're not going home, we have the right to more, this is not right and the justice movement that has changed this country.
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:27.330 Rev Julie Taylor: came out of those young people who said we give a damn about our friend and we're not going home we're here to mourn and to lament this on needed unaccounted for unfair unjust death.
00:43:27.930 --> 00:43:33.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I love it, you know we have to take a break and i'm so sorry that we do, because I what you're saying.
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:50.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is so powerful that show up that's really what we're telling our audience to do is to show up and to stand with people get outside of your own fear and say, let me look and listen and learn and so all of those are things that folks.
00:43:52.380 --> 00:44:11.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: can do in order to participate in this dismantling racism everybody won't be a Julie Taylor or a terrell and Curry avery who are out and about doing things the way we do, but what you're saying is stand in solidarity, what I also.
00:44:12.330 --> 00:44:30.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: heard in all of this was that your ability to not judge people in those situations, but to observe and in your observation you were able to see the deep hurt that was there.
00:44:30.450 --> 00:44:31.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And a lot of times.
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:48.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or don't see that they say why are they tearing up there are doing this and that folks are not able to see their anger and actually in in my upcoming book on dismantling racism, I talked about lamenting because I said it is so important for.
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:49.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: us to lament.
00:44:49.710 --> 00:44:50.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And to mourn.
00:44:50.820 --> 00:45:08.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The chaos and the destruction that we see in this world, and until we can do that, and until we can be in touch with those feelings we cannot move towards healing we're going to take a quick break this is dismantle racism, the Reverend Dr tlc will be back with Reverend Julie Taylor.
00:45:09.570 --> 00:45:12.900 are listening to talk radio and myself.
00:45:15.510 --> 00:45:15.690 and
00:46:07.650 --> 00:46:08.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: experiences.
00:47:25.980 --> 00:47:33.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Julie, I am so delighted that you've spent time with us today, and then our last few minutes, I really want to just.
00:47:34.950 --> 00:47:37.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, when I think about what you described.
00:47:39.330 --> 00:47:45.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As happening in St Louis with Mike Brown and then I think about what happened with George floyd.
00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:47.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and
00:47:49.080 --> 00:47:59.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: talk to me a little bit about maybe the your thoughts and your feelings about whether the world has changed or was it like reliving it.
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:21.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: all over again for you, because oftentimes one of the things I deal with in my classes is people feel like it's hopeless yeah and that's Why then black folks but, particularly when we look at it and go wow isn't ever going to change so talk a little bit about those feelings and similarities.
00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:29.160 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, there definitely were similarities, I mean some of some of the I feel like the police departments in St Louis and.
00:48:29.730 --> 00:48:40.830 Rev Julie Taylor: St Louis county and first of all, the little towns well I don't know if they did, or not, but it feels like they gave some kind of masterclass to a lot of other law enforcement around the country because a lot of the same tactics.
00:48:41.070 --> 00:48:54.210 Rev Julie Taylor: of men worked on and perfected and that were that were utilized in 2014 2015 in Ferguson, and St Louis so there was like who you can kind of see that coming oh yeah here they go.
00:48:56.670 --> 00:49:01.650 Rev Julie Taylor: But I in terms of what's changing what's not things are changing and.
00:49:03.510 --> 00:49:18.600 Rev Julie Taylor: To, but this is only a piece of it right it's only the beginning it's not all of the work it's a piece and we've you know, this is, this is where I have to do, mine where we all have to do our individual work and we have to push for bigger systems change if you know systems theory.
00:49:19.710 --> 00:49:34.410 Rev Julie Taylor: The systems are designed to stay the same, and the amount of energy, it takes to change that is constant ongoing and that's part of the hard thing I think again not speaking for myself as a white person i'm not going to see the end of this change in my lifetime.
00:49:34.830 --> 00:49:36.870 Rev Julie Taylor: But it's my responsibility to do my part.
00:49:37.140 --> 00:49:44.580 Rev Julie Taylor: And that's my responsibility to help my kids learn that they've got to do their part and it's like that's it this generational piece right.
00:49:44.640 --> 00:49:51.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, you know what what I what I appreciate you saying and we keep going back to this so anybody who listens to the show note.
00:49:51.330 --> 00:49:57.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: knows it's The self transformation, because, in order for you to keep pushing for those systems to change.
00:49:57.510 --> 00:50:05.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you've got to believe this down in your soul and spirit edit needs changing if you're only in it for the moment, like i've seen a lot of white people do.
00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:11.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: After George floyd was murdered they're like oh yes we're going to do this we're going to change blah blah, and now.
00:50:12.210 --> 00:50:19.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The interest isn't there anymore The other thing that I think is really valuable about what you are saying.
00:50:19.590 --> 00:50:25.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is you've painted just a small picture, because we could have spent the whole time talking about you know Mike Brown.
00:50:26.310 --> 00:50:31.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Death absolutely and what St Louis was like you actually painted a picture.
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:37.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Small one today of what it was like to shut down grocery stores to shut down all of this.
00:50:37.500 --> 00:50:46.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so folks need to understand that when you're cutting off people's food supplies and their livelihood, because they couldn't go to work that, of course.
00:50:46.830 --> 00:51:00.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there's a snowball effect to that and so when we're sitting on the outside, judging what other people are doing, we need to learn to ask the questions and my question is always why, why did that happen.
00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:18.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Instead of doing the judgment piece around it, and so I do like you believe that there is hope and so i'm glad that that that you're saying that there have been changes critical to what you also said was this piece about what are we telling our young people.
00:51:18.270 --> 00:51:20.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm and what are they experiencing.
00:51:20.820 --> 00:51:21.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And as.
00:51:21.420 --> 00:51:34.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm we always have I know my kids are our prompt one is no longer a teenager but but they had very different thoughts about what we should be doing after George.
00:51:34.770 --> 00:51:35.850 Rev Julie Taylor: yeah yeah.
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:47.820 Rev Julie Taylor: So yeah well, and you know to some I mean i'm i'm old now right like to some degree it's it's part of my job at this point is to support.
00:51:48.390 --> 00:51:59.730 Rev Julie Taylor: I am not a frontlines protester like I was then some of that has to do with my family situation and the kids and I know I know at one point.
00:52:00.270 --> 00:52:10.800 Rev Julie Taylor: In the early in the early days within August and Sep tember my wife actually got on Twitter got a Twitter account to be able to check and see if I mean this is out of her mouth to check and see if I was still alive.
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:23.910 Rev Julie Taylor: If I was still tweeting right and so that was very difficult on my family and now that they're a little older, I have to make adjustments and figure things but they're like you said that, what are the other things you can do so some other ways.
00:52:24.330 --> 00:52:33.750 Rev Julie Taylor: That I am constantly paying attention to how did this went mental white supremacy i'm a professor, it comes into how how I choose what my syllabuses.
00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:40.350 Rev Julie Taylor: yeah who's coming into my courses right it comes into what TV shows that our kids watch.
00:52:40.710 --> 00:52:50.250 Rev Julie Taylor: The kinds of you know, the kinds of story books that we bring in that we have to, we have to consciously look and there's more available than there were in the Internet does help with this.
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:58.650 Rev Julie Taylor: With bookstores and whatnot and articles, but we have to look for books that are not just white people in all the kids books.
00:52:58.890 --> 00:53:04.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm right that's because we have to become conscious of what the tapestry is, though, because.
00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:13.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you're used to the tapestry being always that you're not going to look for those other alert, I want to ask you one other quick question before we have to get ready.
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:25.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But this is you do such important work around crisis intervention and responding to crises and also in your work as an agitator and as an ally and so.
00:53:26.490 --> 00:53:43.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How can people support you in this work, because I think allies, need to be supported because you just talked to we talked about the fear and we talked about the danger we talked about all those things, so how can people support.
00:53:43.980 --> 00:53:46.710 Rev Julie Taylor: Well, nothing you didn't set me up for that question I haven't thought about that one.
00:53:47.430 --> 00:53:57.900 Rev Julie Taylor: I think I you know I think we have to support one another, I have to, I think we have to support one another that way and recognize that these are mutual this has to be mutual this has to be.
00:53:58.590 --> 00:54:06.900 Rev Julie Taylor: Opportunities right perfectionism is one of those hallmarks of white supremacy that messes a whole lot of things up and so for us really working on.
00:54:08.010 --> 00:54:14.340 Rev Julie Taylor: we're going to mess up, how can I do less, but i'm gonna mess up when I mess up Leslie MAC had a great image.
00:54:15.540 --> 00:54:27.750 Rev Julie Taylor: Around apologies is six steps so apologies right, what are you going to do to get back in right relationship, if you can, and if you can't help, how can you do that work it's really important for all of us to pay attention to that and then that grace.
00:54:28.530 --> 00:54:34.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm I love that and I, and I do want you to now that I didn't set you up for the question, think about.
00:54:34.890 --> 00:54:47.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That to support you, because I think it's so important that if people are going to stand up, that they do not feel alone and and that's what I love about when you said caucusing.
00:54:47.370 --> 00:55:02.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It because it's a way of knowing that there are people out there, listen, we have run out of time today we've got to have you back forever Julie, but tell folks how they might be able to get in touch with you, or to learn more about the work you do.
00:55:03.930 --> 00:55:04.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah.
00:55:04.290 --> 00:55:10.110 Rev Julie Taylor: Well i'm a little bit on Twitter at unruly REV you and are you Li R ev.
00:55:11.070 --> 00:55:22.020 Rev Julie Taylor: i'm slowly getting back into Twitter I haven't figured out all the other ones, because i'm old and I met, I met me the lumbar so you can find me the lumbar Theological School as well, and all the great work being done there.
00:55:22.470 --> 00:55:27.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you so much Julie i'm going to have to have you back again because I feel like.
00:55:27.060 --> 00:55:27.450 Rev Julie Taylor: Love is.
00:55:27.780 --> 00:55:28.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The surface.
00:55:28.830 --> 00:55:29.880 Rev Julie Taylor: I love it if.
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:39.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You, the listening audience would like to know more about ways to dismantle racism and the courses, I offer, please do visit sacred intelligence.com.
00:55:39.870 --> 00:55:55.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to learn more again I want to thank the Reverend Julie Taylor for being with me today and I want to invite you to stay tuned to the conscious consultant hour with Sam liebowitz we are going to end today with Reverend Julie, offering us just a brief blessing.
00:55:56.700 --> 00:56:04.530 Rev Julie Taylor: So I wrote this piece in January of 2016 it's love looks different and it's a it's a new riff on first Corinthians 13.
00:56:05.640 --> 00:56:12.960 Rev Julie Taylor: Love looks different love is patient love is kind, it does not envy, it is not proud love bears all things.
00:56:13.470 --> 00:56:20.910 Rev Julie Taylor: We know these words use these words when we're late, where we are relating one person to another but love looks different when we relate systems.
00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:28.920 Rev Julie Taylor: Love looks different in the face of injustice, it is then that love is resistant lovers defiant love is not backing down it's staying in the streets.
00:56:29.160 --> 00:56:40.020 Rev Julie Taylor: Love is holding each other ourselves to accountability love is challenging because none of us has free until all of us is free love is protest protest is love love bears all things.
00:56:40.650 --> 00:56:41.430 Rev Julie Taylor: Thank you rob.
00:56:42.030 --> 00:56:49.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you Reverend Julie by Fidel we'll see you all next time on dismantle racism, with the Reverend Dr tlc.